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chief_chaman478 It sadly doesn't work that way due to turret weapons having focus fire ability, whioch flak doesn't really have thanks to the small fireing angle. Again, testing it will always give clearer results, but that's what I expect to happen.

CursedPh4nt0m yea if i ever get round to it i might try it. itll also be fun to have a 1-2 mil ship thats literally just flak

14 days later

Hello everyone

I got surprized by triangles ability to focus fire when I tried cursedPhantoms'spearhead ship

So I have designed triangles ships, and I would like to have feedback on my last version
value : 907000
image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-WYJZ10SrbRpGqa9z.png

Also I discovered that flak works against energetic weapons
so I tried a variant with flak on his sides, protected by lateral armor
value : 964000
image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-CpJv4vKJSv52bSRi.png
Flak rounds often detonate near it's shields, but they seem to make the difference while fighting itself

so I wonder how effective are theses ships

    Loumardes You usually ping people when talking about their ships, but I guess it is fine this time as I check this place rather often. (Darn Alpha refusing to get back to work!)
    Now about the Spearhead: The only 'Spearhead' I ever posted here was created by @Astrum and only modified by me. All credit goes to him. (Not that any of us bothered about the other one getting credit for a redesign, but still.)


    Generally speaking, flak is a good way of defending yourself against pretty much everythung but ion beams. So far, I've seen a proper flak defense shoot down everything from electro bolts to railgun rounds, occasionally struggling with the latter, LC shots and a massive overload of missiles. Using it in a fight against another laser/EB focused design will surely put quite some pressure off your shields, that won't work as well against the aforementioned weapons tho.
    I also dislike the place you put them, limiting their already small fireing angle even more and exposing them to any stray shots intended for weapons closer to the tip.

    Now, about your designs:

    • the medium reactors in the wings run out of power rather fast, but the large one rarely gets close to that

    • the damage differs depending on the movement direct, but loosing a reactor hurts a lot

    • weapons with penetration power easily weaken the design by destroying corridors and moving walkways

    • your systems went dry rather fast during my test fights

    • you are stretching some distances rather far (the corridor stripes above the quarters and to the flak)

    • all CRs are next to reactors

    • the pd really didn't do much against the four missile launchers of my Arrow
      (the flak only caught some eb shots too)

    • some internals appear messed up (a HLB being connected to an EB instead of the energy storage for example)

    • try using some more internal armor, the Arrow's LCs tore some nasty holes in your ships frame

    ---> To be honest, I didn't expect the interconnected design to be that good at cost-saving. It certainly made it easier for cannons to deal some damage, but you apparently have way more money useable for weapons than my old builds using modules.

    Important note: I was too lazy to deactivate my mods, so at least Cosmofine impacted the results.
    Have my Arrow for own tests:
    https://i.imgur.com/rKAqn1W.png

    PS: I am aware this ship costs 1 million credits, but I had nothing else to test yours against, so...

      CursedPh4nt0m Oh well I can give my designs
      image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-9HVnu4qxVolQR7Bs.png
      Easy railwall (isn't hard to destoy it's experimental design with rails it)

      image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-tIuAoi42Uj0hEaK0.png
      Medium Alpha strike (it's outdated but still isn't weak design it's powerfull alpha strike dealing with it can be very hard to you)
      Hard Missle barge (It's strong at today meta I forgeten to add crews role to beat with fire. good luck)

      image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-kAVFUFmWYHkErarc.png
      @Loumardes Try to fight with sequence easiest to hardest

        damkiller You had some test fights against his ship? I highly doubt the barge or what kinda reminds me of a downtuned version of my old Castle Archer but with way more speed is beatable by a energy-based diagonal.
        The energy-wall on the other hand looks like it will be gone rather fast due to the lacking focus-fiire ability on his diag. (Given I didn't miscalculate the difference in damage output.)

        CursedPh4nt0m I don't want give too hard designs to beat
        Sometimes factories haven't enought enegry but it works solid also this advanced missle barge is less explosive and less expensive

        damkiller There is an issue with your images, I cant load them in cosmoteer

        CursedPh4nt0m I tested your arrow by setting both ships in AI normal
        The result is that it get pretty close to win the fight

        the medium reactors in the wings run out of power rather fast, but the large one rarely gets close to that

        I fixed that in a version with continuous moving hallway

        the damage differs depending on the movement direct, but loosing a reactor hurts a lot

        of course, but in my tests, reactors are often destroyed when it's powered weapons and shields are destroyed first, not decreasing that much ship capacity
        I have issues when the ship is moving forward with large reactor chain exploding the truster's reactor and splitting the ship remainings

        weapons with penetration power easily weaken the design by destroying corridors and moving walkways

        I have rarely the problem against your arrow, again w
        I fixed it as well

        your systems went dry rather fast during my test fights

        I made door conections improvements, setup storage to supply shields only
        due to interconnected design, crew bulks are quite far away and they take time to load the first batteries, causing the fast drain I guess
        at most 1/4 of weapons got unpowered, from what I learned in the old ship building guide it should be fine

        you are stretching some distances rather far (the corridor stripes above the quarters and to the flak)

        well, I need a connection, factory dont require much power, i am considering adding a storage for shields

        all CRs are next to reactors

        Since reactors explode when it's powered modules are gone, and CR when reactors are gone, it should be fine
        also it seem that the best place to not have them blew up by two different reactors is next to one reactor 😉

        the pd really didn't do much against the four missile launchers of my Arrow
        (the flak only caught some eb shots too)

        I played the previous version in mp against (bad) ships barges, and point defense is quite effective against missiles
        the pd focus the cannons shots too, that's why they are ineffective

        Sorry what is the HBL ? now I think all dors placement are intentional

        try using some more internal armor, the Arrow's LCs tore some nasty holes in your ships frame

        there is some protecting the moving walkways now, but I wont reproduce the arrow's armor layout because I think it would space shields too much

        Here is my improved version :
        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-BH0dRKlhT49fnYWI.png

        Flak still seem have trouble catching cannon shots, despite covering 4 tiles at least in front of the ship with his firing arc, it's also hard to see where it shot and how efficient it is

        Loumardes Wow, that certainly is a long reply. I'll just skip anything that's solved and focus on the rest.

        Loumardes Since reactors explode when it's powered modules are gone, and CR when reactors are gone, it should be fine

        That was more of a general thing I mentioned because some ships have more smaller reactors and don't suffer as much from loosing one of them. (My ship would be a fitting example, despite being quite old and really needing some overhaul soon.)

        Loumardes I wont reproduce the arrow's armor layout

        That's a good decision. That entire ship was a 20 minute work done with some random modules I 'borrowed' from earlier designs. The double armor only happened because each of these modules was surrounded by some and I was too lazy to remove it. It's been a while since I last reworked it, but you can be sure about half of the armor will be gone with the next version.
        However, you probably know why I still prefer modules after fighting this design. The 'old-style' ships may be more expensive, slower and have less weapons as well as worse reactor efficiency, but they can tank many more hits than your average interconnected ship.

        Loumardes Sorry what is the HBL ?

        I'm too lazy to write 'heavy laser blaster', so I usually end up with just those three letters. The doors on the new version seem good tho.


        Now, about the new design:

        • The secondary ammo factories at the flak are unneccessary; it falls under the 'don't waste resources for constant firerates' rule you mentioned already.

        • There's no guarantee that's not influenced by one of my active mods, but during testing (the Arrow's 4 missile launchers fireing at your ship from out of weapon range) the pd was pretty much useless. About 65% of the missiles were destroyed by the flak, 20% hit the shields, the pd only got the remains despite getting full attention by the crew thanks to the lack of movement and weapon fire.

        • Try distributing your quarters to reduce the crew reaction delay.

        • The flak shielding really needs a battery storage. It appears you forgot to add some armor on the left flak btw.

        • Consider giving the shields in the tip a power storage too.

        I also found your design is unintentially abusing the AI, as the rather unprotected shield generators protecting the flak eventually get targetted by the Arrow's inaccurate LCs for no apparent reason, usually costing my design the integrity of one compartment while trying to shoot down those quite unimportant parts.

          Loumardes Strange I can load them in cosmotter maybe try to drag them or update the game?

            • Edited

            Loumardes Large reactors are not very useful for anything other than ion cores in my experience, they just produce too much power to use used in any reasonably sized space. Medium reactors are much more useful as they can power 4 HLs (heavy lasers), 4 shields, and a thruster block with minimal travel distance or power storage.

            Also, your flak placement could be better. I would recommend looking at "Cres" in this thread: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/10228-0neye-s-triangles
            Flak placed this way do much better vs missiles and can still protect lasers farther down the line. They are also easier to protect.

            6 days later

            damkiller I have done test fught against theses ships, and as cursedPh4nt0m expected it,
            I tear apart the two first ships, and struggle with the latter

            I have nearly as strong alpha strike than your second ship, plus flak, so it was easy to defeat him

            I have some improvement tips for the last ship :

            it's 2 shield leave a central gap that allow me to easily cut the armor between them and destroy the reactor without hitting the shield arc, maybe consider orienting them inward, like we have done in our triangles' front, so they got mutual protection

            the only crew members allowed to use FE are located in the back of the ship, and the FE are located in the middle, making them ineffective in putting off fires

              Loumardes You might've actually outdone me here, I only expected the second one to go down rather easy, as I scaled his railwall with my old flakwall/railfan hybrid, which is basically untouchable thanks to the amount of flak. On second thought I realise his design isn't even remotely as well protected and can't really put it's railguns to proper use due to the shield overlapping on your ship.
              I haven't checked the ships myself, but the tips on the last one seem reasonable too.

                Oneye
                haven't I found a niche use of the large reactor ?
                He power 8 HL, EB and shields, and his crew route is same than the one in the medium reactor sections of my ship, but maybe both routes are too long and ineffective

                It's true that I could use a medium reactor instead, powering 2 HL on each side
                When I have build it, I have first designed a medium reactor section, put 4 of them to form the triangle shape, and noticed the 2 front reactors are too close each other, and that I could use a large reactor

                I have also easily beat the cannonwall of "the ultimate ship design guide" with it, and it's first challenge with the 600k "cannonwall" I posted here a while ago

                The reason I have not tried theses challenges earlier :

                Oneye Try to beat both of these ships on AI normal using the same design and 600k credits or less

                I figured out a week ago that "same design" mean the same ship to defeat both oponent and not same design that opponents 😉

                  I am happy to show you the last iteration of my design :

                  image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-cOtJ5281sRYFASPo.png
                  I have placed the flak as suggested by Oneye, my own touch beeing their offset, alowing both factories to power the same flak
                  While not costing anything, it allow one flak to shot at constant firerate when the enemy focus fire one side of the ship

                  theses flaks spaced more the 2 sides of the ship, allowing to place the thruster module closer to the large reactor, and to remove it's dedicated reactor, althought it only save money for 20 crew and routes got longer

                  I also added medium thrusters to increase rotation authority, and avoid strafe due to huge thrusters trying to rotate the ship

                  There is an issue with the shields power's route crossing the flak, the storage stay only half full even without fighting, I am considering adding a small reactor there
                  And I forget to test removing the Point Defence system

                  More testfight :
                  I can beat reliably the @CursedPh4nt0m 's Arrow by focus fire it's weapons one by one, especially with my new design
                  So @CursedPh4nt0m , the modules design isn't that tankiest, because weapons are not much protected than in
                  interconected design.
                  I forget to mention that I think that the cost saving effect comes mostly from larger reactors, not interconected design, so if you want to make a v2 I would enjoy testing it 🙂

                  I now defeat too the @damkiller 's missile barge with my new version
                  Before, I was already able to break through his entire armor, before beeing destroyed

                  Now, the increased flak effectiveness seem to be enough to contain most of the missiles while they keep ammo stored
                  The final damage to my ship vary depending of how fast I choose targets, I first destroy the reactor, then first crew bunks, then the first missiles modules of one side and the medium reactor

                  Thanks for yours tips !
                  I am pleased by how all improvements make it a much better ship
                  And waiting for the next challenge

                  • Edited

                  Loumardes Removing the medium reactor and moving the large one closer was a good choice, not it feels like less of a waste. Also, yeah I would use a small reactor instead of that storage, I would also add more armor to the front. Overall much better! I might edit this post with a challenge ship later, be sure to test it AI vs AI and not by piloting it yourself if you have been.

                  Edit:
                  After some testing, I've found that your ship heavily lacks crew. The heavy lasers can only shoot close to 24/7 whenever not under fire. If the shields are getting hit the guns are not firing, and that is a problem.
                  Also, it seems pretty weak to cannons because of this. All of my 1mill cannon walls were able to strip most of its lasers off in a few seconds. I would suggest adding both more crew, and shielding. Try to put the shields under the weapons so you can fit more of each into a smaller space.

                  Loumardes Judging from your reply, could it be you piloted your design manually? Yeah, the AI is kinda dumb, but that's how you usually test ships in singleplayer. Having one ship piloted is quite unfair due to the way better piloting and targeting decisions.
                  I already have a V3 (the one you fought is V2), but it's still using compartments as that has been my style for ages and I'll need some time to bring myself to assign all crew quarters on an interconnected ship, but I've reduced the wheight and cost without cutting in the firepower or shields, so it should pose a good challenge.

                  10 days later

                  Heya! Just wanted to know if there's any sort of flaw in my ship's... err... everything? (design, firepower, efficiency, durability, etc.)

                  Here's my ship design:
                  Gilded Carnage

                  By the way I also have no idea which ship category this one fits in, so... just classify it in any way you want 🙂
                  (Mods are: Kroom's Forge, WH40K, Armor Expanded/Extended????)

                    Oiseau_Noir (My mod folder says it's 'normal armor expanded'.)
                    I don't have Warhammer loaded rn and neither have the time to do so now, but the interior screenshot should suffice for now.

                    • remove some doors, you still have many double connections that won't do anything but adding cost

                    • check on reactor output and (actual) part energy consumtion, it might be you used too many reactors

                    • rotate the missile factories to place doors to the launchers; also rotate the small missile launchers to face outside, I doubt their range makes them effective when facing forward

                    • Kroom's projectile turrets don't need energy

                    • consider putting some stronger turning thrusters to the front, the current ones certainly lack the thrust to turn that thing effectively

                    • remove the [whatever the 40k crew thingies were called again] from parts that only need power, given the connected reactors are enough to keep them powered

                    There's probably some other stuff, but that's what I found now.

                      Oneye your ship heavily lacks crew

                      Well that's true
                      I have tuned crew amount with autofire, but forgotten to check while in battle
                      I have improved it with this version :

                      image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-IZ6bNS3xq4vVU6Mn.png
                      But I am slightely off pricerange, and I require more armor in front, wich may obstruct firing arcs

                      Oneye hields under the weapons

                      I designed new compartments to put them behind HL, and tested some modules in this ship :

                      image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-YhvgP6nvc8OJrIuq.png

                      I am gonna keep edium reactors modules, maybe gona replace central reactor by a medium one closer to the front

                      The flak firing arc matches the hull profile, but theirs modules are not definitive

                      Right now his flauws are that HL are protected by one shield only, and it's harder for crew to reach them

                      It won against the 1M cannonwall from ultimate ship guide, but suffer early damage on HL, and I don't have anything else to test against

                      I am open to Feedback, and continue working on it, since I would like to take part in the today tournament