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Timmy I usually use it as defensive weapon too (even tho there might be one or two exceptions to that in my ship library) and when I saw the first version of his flak-only ships I actually expected the same thing you did. However, I tried it ingame and got a good portion of my designs shredded (few ships in that price class have enough firepower to get through the flak defense), so I guess it's always better to give them a proper check ingame before giving feedback.


chief_chaman478 Sorry I forgot to do this before, but as Sputnik has other priorities regarding shipbuilding, I guess I might give you some feedback too.

  • The lack of turning thrusters might become an issue if you're facing more mobile enemies.

  • Is there a reason you chose to use a medium reactor in the center? It appears the crew now have to walk considerably further and that might impact the shield regen time.

  • [Generic 'crew quarters are more cost-efficient than bunks' reminder]

  • Use a reasonable amount of CRs. If you can supply them while staying below your target price cap, it's always nice to have some more, but most ships that size run on a single one and there's no reason to overdo it. (Just remember to put them somewhere safe.)

I'll give it a test ingame later if I manage to remember it, but I can't guarantee there'll be a test ship waiting at the end of the day.

CursedPh4nt0m yea in multiplayer turning sideways was a problem.
i was testing the medium and large reactors on it and the large, provided too much and, without the two bottom reactors, was too far a walk. the medium reactor with the small reactors seemed to work well and i only tested it once against the previous version and here is what was left after the battle


but i think this is because of the frontal armour, in multiplayer flanking the ship could be lethal.
with this design all i can do for flanking is increase thrust power by extending downwards.

    looking at it now i could keep adding more flak which would eventually allow for engine rooms to be put in place. that could be bringing it into the 1.5-2 mil range tho

      chief_chaman478 You shouldn't do that. The design only works that well because your enemies can't bring that many weapons. Trying that above 1 mil will probably get your flak destroyed by the enemy's alpha strike.

        CursedPh4nt0m with more flak their alpha strike could be negated unless its a strong railgun/ion beam

          chief_chaman478 It sadly doesn't work that way due to turret weapons having focus fire ability, whioch flak doesn't really have thanks to the small fireing angle. Again, testing it will always give clearer results, but that's what I expect to happen.

          CursedPh4nt0m yea if i ever get round to it i might try it. itll also be fun to have a 1-2 mil ship thats literally just flak

          14 days later

          Hello everyone

          I got surprized by triangles ability to focus fire when I tried cursedPhantoms'spearhead ship

          So I have designed triangles ships, and I would like to have feedback on my last version
          value : 907000
          image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-WYJZ10SrbRpGqa9z.png

          Also I discovered that flak works against energetic weapons
          so I tried a variant with flak on his sides, protected by lateral armor
          value : 964000
          image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-CpJv4vKJSv52bSRi.png
          Flak rounds often detonate near it's shields, but they seem to make the difference while fighting itself

          so I wonder how effective are theses ships

            Loumardes You usually ping people when talking about their ships, but I guess it is fine this time as I check this place rather often. (Darn Alpha refusing to get back to work!)
            Now about the Spearhead: The only 'Spearhead' I ever posted here was created by @Astrum and only modified by me. All credit goes to him. (Not that any of us bothered about the other one getting credit for a redesign, but still.)


            Generally speaking, flak is a good way of defending yourself against pretty much everythung but ion beams. So far, I've seen a proper flak defense shoot down everything from electro bolts to railgun rounds, occasionally struggling with the latter, LC shots and a massive overload of missiles. Using it in a fight against another laser/EB focused design will surely put quite some pressure off your shields, that won't work as well against the aforementioned weapons tho.
            I also dislike the place you put them, limiting their already small fireing angle even more and exposing them to any stray shots intended for weapons closer to the tip.

            Now, about your designs:

            • the medium reactors in the wings run out of power rather fast, but the large one rarely gets close to that

            • the damage differs depending on the movement direct, but loosing a reactor hurts a lot

            • weapons with penetration power easily weaken the design by destroying corridors and moving walkways

            • your systems went dry rather fast during my test fights

            • you are stretching some distances rather far (the corridor stripes above the quarters and to the flak)

            • all CRs are next to reactors

            • the pd really didn't do much against the four missile launchers of my Arrow
              (the flak only caught some eb shots too)

            • some internals appear messed up (a HLB being connected to an EB instead of the energy storage for example)

            • try using some more internal armor, the Arrow's LCs tore some nasty holes in your ships frame

            ---> To be honest, I didn't expect the interconnected design to be that good at cost-saving. It certainly made it easier for cannons to deal some damage, but you apparently have way more money useable for weapons than my old builds using modules.

            Important note: I was too lazy to deactivate my mods, so at least Cosmofine impacted the results.
            Have my Arrow for own tests:
            https://i.imgur.com/rKAqn1W.png

            PS: I am aware this ship costs 1 million credits, but I had nothing else to test yours against, so...

              CursedPh4nt0m Oh well I can give my designs
              image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-9HVnu4qxVolQR7Bs.png
              Easy railwall (isn't hard to destoy it's experimental design with rails it)

              image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-tIuAoi42Uj0hEaK0.png
              Medium Alpha strike (it's outdated but still isn't weak design it's powerfull alpha strike dealing with it can be very hard to you)
              Hard Missle barge (It's strong at today meta I forgeten to add crews role to beat with fire. good luck)

              image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/5961-kAVFUFmWYHkErarc.png
              @Loumardes Try to fight with sequence easiest to hardest

                damkiller You had some test fights against his ship? I highly doubt the barge or what kinda reminds me of a downtuned version of my old Castle Archer but with way more speed is beatable by a energy-based diagonal.
                The energy-wall on the other hand looks like it will be gone rather fast due to the lacking focus-fiire ability on his diag. (Given I didn't miscalculate the difference in damage output.)

                CursedPh4nt0m I don't want give too hard designs to beat
                Sometimes factories haven't enought enegry but it works solid also this advanced missle barge is less explosive and less expensive

                damkiller There is an issue with your images, I cant load them in cosmoteer

                CursedPh4nt0m I tested your arrow by setting both ships in AI normal
                The result is that it get pretty close to win the fight

                the medium reactors in the wings run out of power rather fast, but the large one rarely gets close to that

                I fixed that in a version with continuous moving hallway

                the damage differs depending on the movement direct, but loosing a reactor hurts a lot

                of course, but in my tests, reactors are often destroyed when it's powered weapons and shields are destroyed first, not decreasing that much ship capacity
                I have issues when the ship is moving forward with large reactor chain exploding the truster's reactor and splitting the ship remainings

                weapons with penetration power easily weaken the design by destroying corridors and moving walkways

                I have rarely the problem against your arrow, again w
                I fixed it as well

                your systems went dry rather fast during my test fights

                I made door conections improvements, setup storage to supply shields only
                due to interconnected design, crew bulks are quite far away and they take time to load the first batteries, causing the fast drain I guess
                at most 1/4 of weapons got unpowered, from what I learned in the old ship building guide it should be fine

                you are stretching some distances rather far (the corridor stripes above the quarters and to the flak)

                well, I need a connection, factory dont require much power, i am considering adding a storage for shields

                all CRs are next to reactors

                Since reactors explode when it's powered modules are gone, and CR when reactors are gone, it should be fine
                also it seem that the best place to not have them blew up by two different reactors is next to one reactor 😉

                the pd really didn't do much against the four missile launchers of my Arrow
                (the flak only caught some eb shots too)

                I played the previous version in mp against (bad) ships barges, and point defense is quite effective against missiles
                the pd focus the cannons shots too, that's why they are ineffective

                Sorry what is the HBL ? now I think all dors placement are intentional

                try using some more internal armor, the Arrow's LCs tore some nasty holes in your ships frame

                there is some protecting the moving walkways now, but I wont reproduce the arrow's armor layout because I think it would space shields too much

                Here is my improved version :
                image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-BH0dRKlhT49fnYWI.png

                Flak still seem have trouble catching cannon shots, despite covering 4 tiles at least in front of the ship with his firing arc, it's also hard to see where it shot and how efficient it is

                Loumardes Wow, that certainly is a long reply. I'll just skip anything that's solved and focus on the rest.

                Loumardes Since reactors explode when it's powered modules are gone, and CR when reactors are gone, it should be fine

                That was more of a general thing I mentioned because some ships have more smaller reactors and don't suffer as much from loosing one of them. (My ship would be a fitting example, despite being quite old and really needing some overhaul soon.)

                Loumardes I wont reproduce the arrow's armor layout

                That's a good decision. That entire ship was a 20 minute work done with some random modules I 'borrowed' from earlier designs. The double armor only happened because each of these modules was surrounded by some and I was too lazy to remove it. It's been a while since I last reworked it, but you can be sure about half of the armor will be gone with the next version.
                However, you probably know why I still prefer modules after fighting this design. The 'old-style' ships may be more expensive, slower and have less weapons as well as worse reactor efficiency, but they can tank many more hits than your average interconnected ship.

                Loumardes Sorry what is the HBL ?

                I'm too lazy to write 'heavy laser blaster', so I usually end up with just those three letters. The doors on the new version seem good tho.


                Now, about the new design:

                • The secondary ammo factories at the flak are unneccessary; it falls under the 'don't waste resources for constant firerates' rule you mentioned already.

                • There's no guarantee that's not influenced by one of my active mods, but during testing (the Arrow's 4 missile launchers fireing at your ship from out of weapon range) the pd was pretty much useless. About 65% of the missiles were destroyed by the flak, 20% hit the shields, the pd only got the remains despite getting full attention by the crew thanks to the lack of movement and weapon fire.

                • Try distributing your quarters to reduce the crew reaction delay.

                • The flak shielding really needs a battery storage. It appears you forgot to add some armor on the left flak btw.

                • Consider giving the shields in the tip a power storage too.

                I also found your design is unintentially abusing the AI, as the rather unprotected shield generators protecting the flak eventually get targetted by the Arrow's inaccurate LCs for no apparent reason, usually costing my design the integrity of one compartment while trying to shoot down those quite unimportant parts.

                  Loumardes Strange I can load them in cosmotter maybe try to drag them or update the game?

                    • Edited

                    Loumardes Large reactors are not very useful for anything other than ion cores in my experience, they just produce too much power to use used in any reasonably sized space. Medium reactors are much more useful as they can power 4 HLs (heavy lasers), 4 shields, and a thruster block with minimal travel distance or power storage.

                    Also, your flak placement could be better. I would recommend looking at "Cres" in this thread: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/10228-0neye-s-triangles
                    Flak placed this way do much better vs missiles and can still protect lasers farther down the line. They are also easier to protect.

                    6 days later

                    damkiller I have done test fught against theses ships, and as cursedPh4nt0m expected it,
                    I tear apart the two first ships, and struggle with the latter

                    I have nearly as strong alpha strike than your second ship, plus flak, so it was easy to defeat him

                    I have some improvement tips for the last ship :

                    it's 2 shield leave a central gap that allow me to easily cut the armor between them and destroy the reactor without hitting the shield arc, maybe consider orienting them inward, like we have done in our triangles' front, so they got mutual protection

                    the only crew members allowed to use FE are located in the back of the ship, and the FE are located in the middle, making them ineffective in putting off fires

                      Loumardes You might've actually outdone me here, I only expected the second one to go down rather easy, as I scaled his railwall with my old flakwall/railfan hybrid, which is basically untouchable thanks to the amount of flak. On second thought I realise his design isn't even remotely as well protected and can't really put it's railguns to proper use due to the shield overlapping on your ship.
                      I haven't checked the ships myself, but the tips on the last one seem reasonable too.

                        Oneye
                        haven't I found a niche use of the large reactor ?
                        He power 8 HL, EB and shields, and his crew route is same than the one in the medium reactor sections of my ship, but maybe both routes are too long and ineffective

                        It's true that I could use a medium reactor instead, powering 2 HL on each side
                        When I have build it, I have first designed a medium reactor section, put 4 of them to form the triangle shape, and noticed the 2 front reactors are too close each other, and that I could use a large reactor

                        I have also easily beat the cannonwall of "the ultimate ship design guide" with it, and it's first challenge with the 600k "cannonwall" I posted here a while ago

                        The reason I have not tried theses challenges earlier :

                        Oneye Try to beat both of these ships on AI normal using the same design and 600k credits or less

                        I figured out a week ago that "same design" mean the same ship to defeat both oponent and not same design that opponents 😉

                          I am happy to show you the last iteration of my design :

                          image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6640-cOtJ5281sRYFASPo.png
                          I have placed the flak as suggested by Oneye, my own touch beeing their offset, alowing both factories to power the same flak
                          While not costing anything, it allow one flak to shot at constant firerate when the enemy focus fire one side of the ship

                          theses flaks spaced more the 2 sides of the ship, allowing to place the thruster module closer to the large reactor, and to remove it's dedicated reactor, althought it only save money for 20 crew and routes got longer

                          I also added medium thrusters to increase rotation authority, and avoid strafe due to huge thrusters trying to rotate the ship

                          There is an issue with the shields power's route crossing the flak, the storage stay only half full even without fighting, I am considering adding a small reactor there
                          And I forget to test removing the Point Defence system

                          More testfight :
                          I can beat reliably the @CursedPh4nt0m 's Arrow by focus fire it's weapons one by one, especially with my new design
                          So @CursedPh4nt0m , the modules design isn't that tankiest, because weapons are not much protected than in
                          interconected design.
                          I forget to mention that I think that the cost saving effect comes mostly from larger reactors, not interconected design, so if you want to make a v2 I would enjoy testing it 🙂

                          I now defeat too the @damkiller 's missile barge with my new version
                          Before, I was already able to break through his entire armor, before beeing destroyed

                          Now, the increased flak effectiveness seem to be enough to contain most of the missiles while they keep ammo stored
                          The final damage to my ship vary depending of how fast I choose targets, I first destroy the reactor, then first crew bunks, then the first missiles modules of one side and the medium reactor

                          Thanks for yours tips !
                          I am pleased by how all improvements make it a much better ship
                          And waiting for the next challenge