Some tractor beam discussion.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

samepage Through technically I have no ideal how the tractor beam work.

Do you mean you don't understand how that would work from a physics perspective? Or do you mean that you don't know what Walt's plans are for them?

If you mean the former, my explanation is that tractor beams create an artificial gravitational pull. Naturally, heavier things are affected by gravity more than lighter things.

samepage

Tobi-wan_Kenobi Artificial gravitational pull. Check (v)

Lafiel

samepage You can try the tractor beam from Abh or some other mods. But Abh probably is the only one offering all tractor beam working modes.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi Only Walt can make it possible for tractor beam power to adapt. Of course this means varying energy consumption, too.
However, I should remind you all that exerting a force results in a counterforce. This means the mounting of the tractor beam receives the whole force exerted; and it is only so strong. A small ship with a weaker structure cannot pull a large one without receiving damage or rip itself apart at some point. The beam exert force on the target hull and also causes damage (as does the beam from Abh) as the plating surfaces are pulled. Imagine pulling your whole body weight by pulling on your skin.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

Lafiel However, I should remind you all that exerting a force results in a counterforce.

By realistic physics laws, yes. But Cosmoteer already diverges from realistic physics in many ways. Like with inertial decay. Ships slow to a stop when they cease thrusting instead of drifting on at the same speed. Also, railgun shots deliver far more force to the target on impact than to the ship who fires it.

Besides, if the tractor beam is just creating an artificial gravitational pull through some kind of energy projection, who is to say that behaves according to Newton's third law. After all, I don't think modern science yet understands how gravity can exert a pull on light. If gravity can affect light, surely light can affect gravity.

Mc2

Tobi-wan_Kenobi
Just for this:

This would allow a ship to strafe through the beam cone without being immediately grabbed, and it would still reward strafing or blinking out of the cone.

I never saw ship, even with 20times better thrust/mass ratio to be capable outturn anything by staffing. So once you are catch by TB, ,there no escape (except bling).

But anyway, TB as you proposed it nice, color change from light to deep is best indication of TB strength.
and I see that TB could be countered just by other TB, not by any kind of manouevering.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

Mc2 I never saw ship, even with 20times better thrust/mass ratio to be capable outturn anything by staffing.

Then you should check out my newest ship. It can definitely strafe faster than some of the medium/large built-in ships can turn. 🙂

samepage

Mc2 Totally agreed with you. The fact that large ships were allowed to rotate too fast is a topic that deserve its own discussion thread.

Lafiel

Tobi-wan_Kenobi Newstons law is universal for all kinds of forces anything else is no force. All forces are fields. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(physics)

Walt

samepage A few concerns about how the tractor beam exerting its effect on the target. Since the ship's mass can range from 100 tons to 10,000 tons. If the tractor beam simply apply a force on the target and let the physic engine do the rest. For it to have a noticeable effect on a medium-size ship, the force would be too strong on a small fighter, even able to whip it around like a chain chomp.

You will need multiple tractor beams to be able to hold a ship, the number depending on its weight and thrust.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi Also, railgun shots deliver far more force to the target on impact than to the ship who fires it.

To be fair, it could be argued that most of that force comes from the explosion, not the kinetic energy transferred on collision.

Mc2 This funny turning speed ( I was complaining many times) of even the heaviest big ships is one of nice example. But official answer is, dumpers are futuristic device which allow this

samepage The fact that large ships were allowed to rotate too fast

Um, no... Turning speed is actually one of the things that is handled 100% realistically. There's nothing I do that makes ships turn unrealistically fast. The fast turning speed is just how physics works in a vacuum when there's no water or air to hamper rotation.

Mc2

Tobi-wan_Kenobi No, any ship with just few thrusters will outturn it very easily.

EDIT: Outtruning does not mean that it will hit you by projectile.
But in case you will have 45 degree arc of stable TB, you will never dodge it.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

Mc2 No, any ship with just few thrusters will outturn it very easily.

My experiences indicate otherwise. As a specific anecdote, that ship is able to out-strafe the turn speed of the Lightning Bug, the quad ion beam ship. I strafe out of the way of it's beams to keep them off of me for the majority of the fight.

I mean you're right, even many of the larger ships can turn fast enough to maintain facing on my ship, but I can out-strafe them for at least a few seconds until they overcome turn inertia. In the context of our discussion about tractor beams, this means that a ship with good lateral thrust might be able to get out of the beam for a moment, especially as it got closer to the emitter, as the traverse cone effectively narrows the closer you get to it. The cone would have to be pretty narrow though, probably less than 45 degrees. Maybe 30 degrees? Even then, I feel like most ships wouldn't be able to get out of it.

Mc2

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

The cone would have to be pretty narrow though.

Yes, your supposed 45% is to much to be effectievely countered by any maneuver by even the fastest ships.
Your statement to have pretty narrow cone is better, sound much better, what will be correct degree will test players than, I suppose that 15% for beginning could be good start for balance testing.

By realistic physics laws, yes. But Cosmoteer already diverges from realistic physics in many ways.

This funny turning speed ( I was complaining many times) of even the heaviest big ships is one of nice example. But official answer is, dumpers are futuristic device which allow this 😃

Dumb

Walt Maybe not missile range, but not really short range either

laughs in rocket kiters
(honestly with auto-fire option on,missile kiters can gain ridiculous range with constant harass,i suggest that tractor beam can have ridiculous range,as its a beam,not a projectile that can go beyond the targeting range,but remains to have the effect-diminishes-with-distance feature)

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

Walt To be fair, it could be argued that most of that force comes from the explosion, not the kinetic energy transferred on collision.

Oh, I didn't think of that. I assumed the railgun projectiles were solid metal without explosive filler.

samepage

Walt Turning speed is actually one of the things that is handled 100% realistically

Yes, we understand that. But it's also realistic that an 100-meters long ship spinning at full speed should tear itself apart, or kill everyone inside it. Yet this was never a concern for realistic.

Beside that, there is a good reason why a large ship should turn slower: To encourage people to using more fighter based tactics. By now most people should have noticed how maneuverable a large ship can be. Beside having better shields and weaponry, large ships also have better access to stuffs like engine room and huge thruster. There is no point to use small fighter if one can just build a huge dreadnought that move like a fighter. I don't how others think of this, but seeing a huge square ship spinning like weightless paper don't feel realistic to me.

Mc2

Walt

The fast turning speed is just how physics works in a vacuum when there's no water or air to hamper rotation.

But there are living creatures which should survive rotation inside ship 😃
Just statement from NASA
"A trained, fit individual wearing a g suit and practising the straining maneuver can, with some difficulty, sustain up to 9 g without loss of consciousness. "

In picture below is NASA centridfuga, to get between 3-4 Gs you tur it once per 4 sec.

image https://i.imgur.com/FlV1ifj.png

So if ship like this turn i 1 sec, it means that beings on the edges has to survive "100g" (realy dont count just estimation).

image https://i.imgur.com/frsIpWE.png
(creditr for the nice wall to Equalizer).

so yes, ships can can technically turn like this, but question is how its possible that centrifugal force do not tear them in parts and how crew survive that?

Mc2

samepage Well, i did answer , and than i read your post 😃
Walt have double answer then,

Dalas120

samepage Walt Turning speed is actually one of the things that is handled 100% realistically

Yes, we understand that. But it's also realistic that an 100-meters long ship spinning at full speed should tear itself apart, or kill everyone inside it. Yet this was never a concern for realistic.

I agree with you, but I don't think there's any good way to implement this. All the things I can think of (and believe me, I've tried before) would either be frustrating, unrealistic/unintuitive, break 90% of ships, or all three.

samepage Beside that, there is a good reason why a large ship should turn slower: To encourage people to using more fighter based tactics.

I think fighters/multi-ships are already adequately strong and are getting stronger now that cannons are better again. They counter some designs (e.g. kiters, missile/railgun barges), and are countered by some designs (e.g. laser triangles, armadillos). But they do take a lot of piloting skill to use well, more than I'm capable of.

Tractor beams, ofc, would probably be a heavy nerf to fighters - both by slowing fighters and by countering kiters (which fighters are very strong against).

Lafiel

This is only a problem now because there's infinite fuel. Wait and see when you got to buy fuel.
Besides for tournaments rules pertaining to the amount of engines could be established to promote smaller ships. It's just a question whether people want to follow certain building lore or not.
I see no reason why options should be blocked for everyone by default.

Lafiel

Mc2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force
The crew are genetically modified?
or answer from a team of not quite so smart (physicists?)

Mc2

Lafiel

The crew are genetically modified?

NO, official Walt answer was internal dampers which hold ship together and keep crew alive.

BTW why you so like to use post wiki articles?