Cosmoteer Release Candidate 0.14.0_rc1

Tson

Walt
it just happened again, here is crash log:
i moved it to here
https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/5345-multiplayer-crash-in-1-14-0
once this has been looked at i will get rid of this post as its MASSIVE

SpaceCat

@Walt

Ok - had a go with thrusters.

In Races: Larger ones need so long to get to full thrust that the ships with smaller thrusters reach the destination quicker simply because they accelerate much better.

In fights: go all small thrusters or die waiting for thrust to build up!

Larger thrusters only make sense over very large distances, which are not present in multiplayer (ring of death) and also large distance travel is hardly ever usefull in singleplayer.

Also smaller thrusters beeing the only ones with lateral thrust now kills using any other thrusters then small for small and medium ships.

All but small thrusters are pretty useless with this thrust-delay and no lateral thrust.

Great update but bad first attempt (RC1) 😉

Tson

SpaceCat
i agree about the lateral bit but not the delay
also, IT CRASHED AGAIN, ARRRRDGDGHSAGHE

Walt

SpaceCat That does mean 1 / 3 / 6 seconds when played in normal speed i guess and is scaled when playing in different speeds - or it would hardly make any sense?

That's at normal speed. Also, I might change it to 1 / 2 / 4.

SpaceCat Rly fear players will exploit the smallest thrusters again 🙁

I think it's pretty safe to assume that there will need to be balance updates in the future, but let's wait a bit to see how the meta develops.

Tson my game just crashed in multiplayer when i was in a game with @Verania and @That_Angry_Man, unfortunately i dont know why as i was a noob and closed the error page, thought i should still let u kno tho

Yup, I borked multiplayer. I'll release another RC later today to fix it.

SpaceCat Also smaller thrusters beeing the only ones with lateral thrust now kills using any other thrusters then small for small and medium ships.

Can you elaborate on why this is? Small thrusters only have 10% lateral, so it doesn't seem like that should be a huge advantage. (I feel like the ramp-up time on the larger thrusters is more of an issue.)

SpaceCat

Tson the delay

The Thrust-delay makes acceleration so slow that you reach your destinations quicker, and turn quicker, with small thrusters - so how could you not agree?

SpaceCat

Multiplayer crashes or disconnects constantly.
I do not post all the logs here obv.

Tson

SpaceCat
actually you dont over long distances, just tested, it means that within about 4-5 squares small thrusters are better, which when you think about it equates to manouvring jets on real craft. but beyond that distance the other thrusters have the edge by quite a large margin. i agree its not the best but it is realistic.

Tson

SpaceCat
crashed again

SpaceCat

Tson crashed again

Tson Have this conversation on discord maybe.

Not reporting every single crash on forums seems reasonable.

SpaceCat

it is realisitc that small thrusters accelerate much better then big ones ???
(when both ships have same weight ofc)

Well then we will just have multiple small engiens instead of one big!

Not realistic & kills gameplay.

Tson

SpaceCat
i agree actually, also weight does not work like that in space.
not complaining just pointing it out.

Tson

SpaceCat
sorry

SpaceCat

Tson lol - "weight" is universal - it is a constant everywhere. (Maybe not inside blackholes.)

not complaining either ;-)

ClassicJam

SpaceCat Weight depends on gravity. Without gravity, there can be no weight. The thrust is actually moving mass.

SpaceCat

@Walt

... further expierience with thrusters.

Having no lateral thrust at all makes the "overshoot target destination" worse.
Powering Huge thrusters constantly is very hard (if not impossible) even with more then then recommended crew and more then enough reactors.

Walt

SpaceCat Having no lateral thrust at all makes the "overshoot target destination" worse.

This is really only true for existing ship designs that are built assuming they have lateral thrust.

SpaceCat Powering Huge thrusters constantly is very hard (if not impossivble) even which more then then recommended crew and more then enough reactors.

Huge thrusters don't use any more power-per-force than other thrusters, but they probably need a crew priority buff so that crew will replenish them faster.

SpaceCat

Walt Also smaller thrusters beeing the only ones with lateral thrust now kills using any other thrusters then small for small and medium ships.

Can you elaborate on why this is? Small thrusters only have 10% lateral, so it doesn't seem like that should be a huge advantage. (I feel like the ramp-up time on the larger thrusters is more of an issue.)

Because especially "smolships" often have no stern thrusters and only use the lateral thrust to strafe.

I agree that the "thrust-delay" is the main problem that makes bigger thrusters inferior.
I was more thinking of very short or no thrust-delay (like 0,25 / 0.5 / 1 seconds)

I'm very critic about this because i rly want bigger thrusters to be used!
(Not end up with tiny thruster clumps again.)

Reality for me is: if there was equal (10%) lateral thrust, as everyone thought it would be, and NO thrust-delay / spinup time - then i would start shipdesigning immidiately - but now i hope it beeing fixed and play the latest stable eventually.

Tson

Walt
Thanks! personally i like the new thruster system.

Dalas120

Walt

Here's some spreadsheet data I put together analyzing thrusters in the RC (assuming that Huge are buffed to 1250 thrust as proposed on the discord): http://www.mediafire.com/file/2iyy9tuhcstohz0/Engine%20Efficiencies.xlsx
"Per room (forward)" and "Per room (omni)" means the number of thrusters that can operate off of a single engine room all facing forward or facing any direction.

This is solely based on thrust and total cost for dedicated engine compartments (ignoring space), but for most ships thruster space isn't a major concern. Inward-facing thrust boxes make surface area fairly irrelevant.

As you can see, large and huge thrusters have a very minor advantage over small thrusters when supported by an engine room, but not nearly enough of an advantage to compensate for their spinup time. Standard thrusters are just awful in every situation.

I guess the question is: what kinds of ships do you want using what kinds of thrusters? Small ships (with external thrusters) care the most about thruster surface area and the least about exclusion zone, while larger ships (with internal thrusters) care the most about exclusion zone+engine rooms and not so much about surface area.

SpaceCat

Walt If you replace the Large Thrusters with pairs of Standard Thrusters, how well does it work?

Ok i testet this very successfull ship(s) - these sometimes fooled quite monstrous behemoths.

image https://i.imgur.com/50O3aJk.png

The one with the standard thrust accelerates faster but then gets overtaken by the one with big thrusters after short time.
So the choice seems to be "Acceleration" VS "Top speed" here. It is a hard one. And then you could mix thrusters. And then look at the significant cost difference (133k - 140K). And so on ...

Mentioning that small ships without lateral thrust are forced to have a rebuild because they refuse to attack from an angle and overshoot their move-order-destination constantly and are often found circling helplessly.
Also bigger ships without side/stern/lateral thrusters have a hard time now.
Only Diagonals still do not have to care for thrust-direction because they have 90° placed thrusters anyway.

Walt Also, I might change it to 1 / 2 / 4.

hope you still consider this thrust-rampup ratios - might smooth it out more overall ...

SpaceCat

@Walt Have a nice Vacation!

Equalizer

It might be worth considering making bigger thrusters more energy efficient for the thrust produced.

Dalas120

Don't forget that large/huge thrusters synergize MUCH better with engine rooms than small thrusters do. But if you calculate thrust/cost, 3 huge + engine room is still more expensive than all small thrusters (including doors, power, and estimated crew). And small thrusters don't have a 6 second warmup time. Even if huge thrusters got a 25% thrust buff (which would make their thrust/cost similar to small thrusters), they would still be pretty underpowered because of the warm-up time.

IMO huge and large thrusters should be significantly more cost-efficient than small thrusters to make up for their warmup times. Right now they're more cost-effective (if you use engine rooms), but I don't think it's enough to compensate for the warmup time.

I DO very much like the warmup/cooldown mechanic on thrusters, but I don't think big thrusters are getting compensated enough for it.