Tractor Beam Prototype

Walt

Hey folks! As you may be aware, the 0.14.8 update is planning to add tractor beams! Although the release candidate for this update isn't scheduled to come out until Friday of next week, I already have the tractor beam basically working, and I'd like to get your feedback on it early so that I can make any major changes to it before the release candidate instead of after.

Download Tractor Beam Prototype 1

Some notes about this prototype:

ALL of the art and visual effects are TEMPORARY. They are just "programmer art" that I'm using to test the code and mechanics, and they will be updated to look way better before the release candidate.
The size, cost, and general balance of the tractor beam are also highly preliminary. It's currently 4x4 and costs $25K, but both of those could change. It also has a 360 degree firing arc, but the final version might have a limited arc. I welcome your feedback on all of this.
Tractor beams are targeted a bit differently than normal weapons. By default, it's set to hold fire (though you can change it to "at will" just like any other weapon). It will also ignore any ship-wide targeting commands (though you can still select the tractor beam and give it an individual target). Instead, if your ship has a tractor beam, you will have a couple extra buttons on your HUD that will allow you to target the tractor beam(s) on an enemy ship or cancel its target. By default the tractor beam targets the center of the targeted ship, but if you hold Ctrl you can target a specific part.
There is no "push" mode. If you think it really needs a push mode, please explain why.
The tractor beam has a 200 range but, once firing, can stretch up to 400 range. As the range increases, its pull strength and power consumption increases, making it act kind of like a rubber band.
Shields block the tractor beam, but will have their power drained by the tractor beam. (The amount drained increases with range.) I am unsure if this is a good idea, or whether it would be better to have them ignore shields. (Tractor beams have a very high power cost per point of shield drain, which I think will make them ineffective anti-shield weapons, except that they have so much power capacity that at long range their burst anti-shield damage is actually quite high. Unsure if this is bad or actually kind of interesting.)
It's the first roof-mounted "weapon", huzzah! The 0.14.8 update will come with full modding support for roof-mounted bullet and beam weapons.

Let me know what you think!

LeftHandofGod

Walt OMG I CAN FINALLY GET FULL BLOWN ROOF LANCES FOR 14.8???!?!?!? HALLELUJAH!

thatPolarBear

Walt I think a nice option for the tractor beam would be a "hold in place" setting where the tractor beam would do it's best to keep another ship in one position relative to the main ship but still rotate like for fleets. And also so that we can have internal spinning weapons like this: (made by 0neye)
image https://i.imgur.com/zkKvp0l.png

SpaceCat

Tractorbeam simply seems cool and mostly working at first sight.
Works well on friendly ships, enemy ships, targeted ships as well as non targeted ships.
Sometimes drops out when very close to the connected ship and then activates again after ships have a certain orientation.

Walt There is no "push" mode. If you think it really needs a push mode, please explain why.

Since it works more then a grapling hook or rubbeband then a forcefield - meaning it pulls both ships together rather then just vacuuming one ship into one direction. NO we do not think it needs a Push Mode

In case that a seperate "Forcfield" system would be added in future, which can transport (vacuum) other ships into one direction without affecting the position (or physics) of the ship that creates the force field - YES that would rly benefit from a push mode.

Another cool forcefield/tractor system would be a simple "Force-Shield" affecting ships(parts), stopping or slowing them down when they are int the area of effect. (NO push or pull mode here at all.)

@Walt considering to add more tractor or forcefield systems?

(PS.: credits to "anni" for creative ideas here)

regards

Namek

Walt

I think push mode should be added.

It adds various new tactics you can use, like pushing someone out of the RoD, or even push friendly ships in a desired position.

Or, your enemy has only close range weapons, and you have long range. This way you can push then so they dont get to fire.

You can even made a double ship locked into one another, and propel yourself forward!

There are many things you can use it for, even more than I explain, or can even think about.

Claw262

reason for push mode:
image https://i.imgur.com/QgYWqjT.png
so ships like this can work

beef1213

Claw262 i was just about to say this

Drakador_Chaos

Roofbeams? Roofbeams! IT`S ROOFBEAMS!

IVIemories

Question, were tractor beams always envisioned to be roof mounted, or has your stance on roof mounted weapons changed somewhat?

Walt

IVIemories Question, were tractor beams always envisioned to be roof mounted, or has your stance on roof mounted weapons changed somewhat?

Ever since this thread: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/7111-0-14-5-tractor-beams-proposal

My stance on roof weapons has not changed in a while. I'm still only planning to do it for the most powerful "super weapons". The tractor beam is like half-super but also only half-weapon, so I think it qualifies?

SpaceCat

Roofmounted seems to make sense for the tractor beam or other "special" systems.

Tho for "normal" weapons i cannot imagine how targeting will exactly work because "roofmounted" basically creates another layer - so how would tageting between these layers work? can you ever target the rooflayer directly without hitting the lower layer?
and how would "holes" in ships work when a projectile flies over them? Would projectiles fired from the roof layer fly over a friendly ship or hit it?

too many questions ... have to test tractor beam then maybe it clears up a bit.

Walt

SpaceCat so how would tageting between these layers work? can you ever target the rooflayer directly without hitting the lower layer?

No, that's a key mechanic of Cosmoteer, and I don't think roof weapons should be exempt.

SpaceCat and how would "holes" in ships work when a projectile flies over them? Would projectiles fired from the roof layer fly over a friendly ship or hit it?

My current thinking (and this is how tractor beams work) is that roof weapons ignore collisions with their own ship but not any other friendly ships.

SpaceCat Sometimes drops out when very close to the connected ship and then activates again after ships have a certain orientation.

I believe this is because of their relatively low turret turn speed, though would need to see an example to be sure it's not a bug.

SpaceCat considering to add more tractor or forcefield systems?

Maybe! I'll think about it, not likely happening anytime soon though.

Namek I think push mode should be added.

These are good arguments in favor of push mode, I may be leaning that way myself, largely because it creates more possibilities for creative ship designs. But here are some arguments against push mode from the earlier tractor beam thread:

Dalas120 pushing and pulling with a 360 degree turret hard-counters clinging ships, unless there is significant counterplay, and that may not be a good thing.
Dalas120 It seems like it would make fleet play very difficult, and IMO fleet play is definitely something to be encouraged. Turning would still be doable with pulling-only, just more difficult (which might be a good thing anyway - I suspect it's a lot easier to turn an enemy than to pull them in from afar).
Walt Yeah you may be right here. If you push/pull different sides then the ship turns and now those sides aren't where they used to be and you're no longer turning the ship in the direction you originally were and now need to change sides -- that's a lot of micro that I'm not a fan of. I'll have to test it in the actual physics engine, but I bet pulling alone is good enough to "yank" a side of a ship toward you, and that'll be way easier to control than multiple beams in different push/pull modes.

Timmy I mean a push would REALLY help spinners because it could be used as a spaceship suspension system.

A VERY expensive suspension system.

BattleCruiserCommander

TBH (Pull) Tractor beams would be great against kiter ships, even be good against early beginner-class ships like the mosquito. Would also help with suicide bombers, as nuke launchers plus tractor beams would mean that the target cannot dodge it. Also good for keeping the enemy close up, allowing for massive barrages and such. This update might actually change my mind and get the new versions to update my ships. Maybe mods could put this in a mod, but increase it's size and power to help stop ships or act like slingshots. This mod might also help with OP walls, as having something like a "spine" of tractor beams could turn the ship wall on its underbelly, allowing the ship to attack it.

(I know these might not be great answers, but I thought I just had to get this all out.)

Timmy

I mean a push would REALLY help spinners because it could be used as a spaceship suspension system. Now you dont have the problem of ships catching and getting stuck from collisions, which also helps against lag.

CaptainRedstone

Timmy You can still use core suspension with pull, it works basically the same way

CrazyBirdie

A push option for the tractor beams would also be useful for propelling a ship away when a fast escape is needed.

Nordwolf

Walt My current thinking (and this is how tractor beams work) is that roof weapons ignore collisions with their own ship but not any other friendly ships.

I feel like Tractor beam should ignore collisions all together and just target the point you want to attract. Why would it not ignore collisions anyway?

beef1213

Walt what if in push mode the part became fixed or had a more limited arc? this way it would not be such a hard counter ageist clingers. or maybe just have a separate part for it that's less expensive but fixed(maybe 2x6?).

Equalizer

Walt In my opinion tractor beams with push capability are needed to provide a counter to ramming.

Currently if a slow ship is not a circle a fast ship can ram the side or back preventing it from fighting back and there is nothing it can do. (This is not hypothetical, this has happened several times in the tournaments.)

If anything, the current version of the tractor beam seems to make speed even more important. With enough speed a ship can simply remain outside of tractor beam range and fire at the opponent. Alternatively it can be used in conjunction with high forward thrust to ram and cling to a ship preventing it from fighting back.

mystique

Walt

Walt Dalas120 pushing and pulling with a 360 degree turret hard-counters clinging ships, unless there is significant counterplay, and that may not be a good thing.

Counter: make it side-mounted

CrazyBirdie

With tractor beams, it is possible to actually make a semi-dockable space station. The tractor beams could be used to pull it in a keep in in a "docking bay."

thatPolarBear

CrazyBirdie that will probably be added after he adds space stations in the bh update