Tractor Beam Prototype

CrazyBirdie

A push option for the tractor beams would also be useful for propelling a ship away when a fast escape is needed.

Walt

SpaceCat so how would tageting between these layers work? can you ever target the rooflayer directly without hitting the lower layer?

No, that's a key mechanic of Cosmoteer, and I don't think roof weapons should be exempt.

SpaceCat and how would "holes" in ships work when a projectile flies over them? Would projectiles fired from the roof layer fly over a friendly ship or hit it?

My current thinking (and this is how tractor beams work) is that roof weapons ignore collisions with their own ship but not any other friendly ships.

SpaceCat Sometimes drops out when very close to the connected ship and then activates again after ships have a certain orientation.

I believe this is because of their relatively low turret turn speed, though would need to see an example to be sure it's not a bug.

SpaceCat considering to add more tractor or forcefield systems?

Maybe! I'll think about it, not likely happening anytime soon though.

Namek I think push mode should be added.

These are good arguments in favor of push mode, I may be leaning that way myself, largely because it creates more possibilities for creative ship designs. But here are some arguments against push mode from the earlier tractor beam thread:

Dalas120 pushing and pulling with a 360 degree turret hard-counters clinging ships, unless there is significant counterplay, and that may not be a good thing.
Dalas120 It seems like it would make fleet play very difficult, and IMO fleet play is definitely something to be encouraged. Turning would still be doable with pulling-only, just more difficult (which might be a good thing anyway - I suspect it's a lot easier to turn an enemy than to pull them in from afar).
Walt Yeah you may be right here. If you push/pull different sides then the ship turns and now those sides aren't where they used to be and you're no longer turning the ship in the direction you originally were and now need to change sides -- that's a lot of micro that I'm not a fan of. I'll have to test it in the actual physics engine, but I bet pulling alone is good enough to "yank" a side of a ship toward you, and that'll be way easier to control than multiple beams in different push/pull modes.

Timmy I mean a push would REALLY help spinners because it could be used as a spaceship suspension system.

A VERY expensive suspension system.

Nordwolf

Walt My current thinking (and this is how tractor beams work) is that roof weapons ignore collisions with their own ship but not any other friendly ships.

I feel like Tractor beam should ignore collisions all together and just target the point you want to attract. Why would it not ignore collisions anyway?

beef1213

Walt what if in push mode the part became fixed or had a more limited arc? this way it would not be such a hard counter ageist clingers. or maybe just have a separate part for it that's less expensive but fixed(maybe 2x6?).

Equalizer

Walt In my opinion tractor beams with push capability are needed to provide a counter to ramming.

Currently if a slow ship is not a circle a fast ship can ram the side or back preventing it from fighting back and there is nothing it can do. (This is not hypothetical, this has happened several times in the tournaments.)

If anything, the current version of the tractor beam seems to make speed even more important. With enough speed a ship can simply remain outside of tractor beam range and fire at the opponent. Alternatively it can be used in conjunction with high forward thrust to ram and cling to a ship preventing it from fighting back.

mystique

Walt

Walt Dalas120 pushing and pulling with a 360 degree turret hard-counters clinging ships, unless there is significant counterplay, and that may not be a good thing.

Counter: make it side-mounted

CaptainRedstone

Timmy You can still use core suspension with pull, it works basically the same way

beef1213

Claw262 i was just about to say this

CrazyBirdie

With tractor beams, it is possible to actually make a semi-dockable space station. The tractor beams could be used to pull it in a keep in in a "docking bay."

thatPolarBear

CrazyBirdie that will probably be added after he adds space stations in the bh update

mystique

WOOT!

SpaceCat

@Walt Thx for clearing all our questions up!

Will be more into 14.7 for now.

regards,

dieaready

IMO the way tractor beams should work would be as follows:

Surface mounted with a 210 degree arc, 2x7, hits the surface of the enemy ship
300 range, strength of pull/push affected by distance, where further = weaker, and pushing is at 2/3 the pulling strength. 0 range needs 8x large thrusters to counter, halving in strength every 100 range
Penetrates shields, with shields reducing the strength of the beam by 50% per shield (50%, 25%, 12.5%...) but drains each shield it penetrates with diminishing effects (each shield reduces the drain on the next shield by 50%). Initial drain value = 2x ion beam
Requires 1.5x reactors to power it continuously
Toggle option to push/pull/hold (helps the ship to stay within optimal range, reduces enemy ship's side-strafing) and to reverse the push/pull strength gradient (closer = stronger to closer = weaker)

This setup would make tractor beams an additional weapon vs shields (but very expensive and difficult to use just for shields since it would do no physical damage) while being semi-nullified by shields. This provides a good balance, making it extremely effective vs unshielded kites (which are lighter/faster/cheaper) and weakens/slows shielded kites over time, allowing for a period of time for the kite to do damage but succumbing to the tractor beam eventually (depending on design of course). This also allows for 'limpet' type ships to suction onto the sides of enemy ships and stay firmly in place, while at the same time also allowing for ships to forcefully repel ramming ships trying to get in close (increases types of ship design).

The current system proposed would entirely break the use of kites (less viable ship designs) since a large ship can just stack internal tractor beams (energy consumption is not a concern tbh since it is all internal) to pull any kite within firing range (while depleting their shields), and does not enable the use of 'limpet' type ships. Basically the current system would lead to lazy and unimaginative ship designs, and would favour the 'larger is better' mentality.

Walt

dieaready where further = weaker

The problem with this is that it leads to a black hole style "event horizon" where there's some distance at which you don't have enough thrust and you just get sucked in all the way with no possibility of escape or improving your situation, rendering your thrusters useless.

By having the tractor beam strength increase with range, that means that even if you don't have enough thrust to escape entirely, your thrusters are still useful because they will still help you keep some distance away.

dieaready The current system proposed would entirely break the use of kites (less viable ship designs) since a large ship can just stack internal tractor beams (energy consumption is not a concern tbh since it is all internal) to pull any kite within firing range

I don't believe this is true with the current tractor beam balance numbers. Engines are far more cost and power efficient per unit of thrust than tractor beams. So for a similar cost ship to trap a kiter, it's going to have to spend an enormous amount of money on tractor beams, crew, and power, leaving much less money for weapons and defenses.

dieaready

Walt

Walt I don't believe this is true with the current tractor beam balance numbers. Engines are far more cost and power efficient per unit of thrust than tractor beams. So for a similar cost ship to trap a kiter, it's going to have to spend an enormous amount of money on tractor beams, crew, and power, leaving much less money for weapons and defenses.

The thing is engines either require external surface area (which may need protection) or a massive internal area size, while you can just stack the tractor beams internally wherever you want. And for larger ships, you can even have them on the other side of the ship to have increased pull strength. A ship with sufficient tractor beams doesn't need much engine power, and you can eventually end up with a tractor beam satellite basically. External surface area is exponentially expensive while internal volume is exponentially cheaper, so as it scales up it can become overpowered for its relative cost.

Walt The problem with this is that it leads to a black hole style "event horizon" where there's some distance at which you don't have enough thrust and you just get sucked in all the way with no possibility of escape or improving your situation, rendering your thrusters useless.

Exactly as intended. However, since it would be surface mounted, having enough tractor beams to do so would mean that they are giving up valuable surface area for weapons, so in which case the ship would lose out in terms of frontal firepower, which imo would be a good tradeoff. Alternatively if manually piloted, the player could go for a ram and hopefully the rotational inertia from it would be sufficient to break free, like a slingshot. Also with the tractor beam able to push, there is no reason why the other ship would never have their own tractor beams to help maintain their distance either. Thus this opens a much wider range of options for ship design.