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Hatter Okay, yeah, that link was a huge help, thanks... Definitely was a need-to-know. Also, now that I was able to test it like you asked, yeah, it's soooo bad as a combat craft, especially against multiple opponents, especially ones of decent build quality... The cost effectiveness makes it about as bad as the time I made a TANK for the heck of it XD
image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-DgNdroj25vKtSCVy.png
About 1,075,000 in cost, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't kill a single craft of good build above 500,000, it's such a silly build, but it's one of those things that just had to happen once I thought of it... There ARE some points made about it in the thread I introduced this in, right here: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/10586-a-strange-little-thing/8 and I do make my arguments for this while acknowledging that, yes, I am WELL aware that it is not a combat effective craft. It, like the "Stella Mortem" (The Death Star replica), are mainly just show pieces, made for the sake of it and not really anything else.

Anyways, on to the critiques about the Croc-Head... Like I said before, this is basically just a smaller, much more compact and significantly less stupidly made Capitol Destroyer. That being said, I know I can probably rearrange a couple things around and HOPEFULLY not alter the price in doing so (since that was the idea of this build), but other than that, it's honestly about where I'd expect it to be, just that it COULD have been better if not for a certain game property, but I MIGHT be able to work around that, honestly...

Also, I kinda figured as much with the thruster area, I can see if I can work something out with that as well. As for the case of the missiles, sure the factories could support 2.5 each ON PAPER, but in practice I find it better to consider travel time, and the fact that there's almost no corridor space whatsoever, I figured each for 1.5 would be good to stay on the safe side.

In the case of it being volatile like everything else, I get that, but at the same time, this scale of craft is cheaper, which means it's more expendable, so strategically speaking, it's no the worst strategy to go all out, if done correctly, and the Croc-Head is actually surprisingly hardy compared to the crafts I tested them against, for their cost, so I'll take that as a win in my book.

Saying that, I've still yet to see a craft that's anywhere near as cost effective as the Cegna Rei. I mean that thing is an absolutely godly design, to be in the game as a player build that made it in (Also mad respect for the fact that it also looks like an overpowered rendition of the Galaga fighter), I don't think I could ever come up with a design as good as that thing is without the price being at least twice over...

    Disclaimer: still not a teacher since last time I said it.

    I_Am_Jarvis The guide is extremely helpful.

    If you want to see cost effective craft, I'd recommend trying competitive multiplayer. You will explode repeatedly, but you'll learn a lot doing it.

    I disagree that travel time reduces the number of launchers a factory can support. I believe that an increase in travel time merely increases the amount of crew required to keep a launcher supplied, as ultimately the factory produces the same amount of missiles/sec and the launchers have the same consumption regardless of placement.

    And since nobody else has sent out a test:
    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6411-T25TgqbSifO6g6Uz.png
    Would you try your 'croc-head' against this totally original, not at all based on anything, ship?

      Hatter
      Hah! Oh yeah, so original alright XD Sure, I can do that...

      Edit: ... Yyyep... At first it was surprisingly even, then the missiles from your version found their sweet spot and gutted it. The shield setups from both are so tanky, but yeah, it was more or less a matter of which one's missiles found their sweet spot first... I guess that's technically still a win, even if by chance, after I saw the cost difference XD

        I_Am_Jarvis Would you mind doing repeated tests?
        Edit: The 4x speed might help

        Hatter
        I thought about that... but then I gone and went through the trouble of then attempting to make a beefier version instead that could potentially out-pace it, and then that blew up very quickly... Literally. Then after I tweaked THAT, I realized why it blew up so easily. I forgot fire extinguishers XD Anyways, I'll get back to you on that once I've finished screwing around with testing this and THEN repeating the test from earlier...

        But uhhh yeah, here's the utter failure:
        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-xoeZU1yeld1bCoiM.png

        And this is the one I'm testing right now (I found that the outer bits were actually at a distance where they cause problems for the missiles, so I had to ditch those):
        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-pxons92TSiiMojTo.png
        Edit: Still blew up horribly, okay I'm gonna just stop screwing around and just refine the original XD

        Edit 2: Okay, so... I'm starting to see what the sole reason of why that thing keeps whipping me. That giant chunk of armor at the front, with the reactor right behind it. I'm even retrofitting my design with EMP missiles, which isn't amounting to anything when the Laser Blasters can't even break through that chunk of armor XD

        Hatter
        I got one that finally works. It's a little over budget, at 724,000 but it's at least something of my own design that isn't anything overboard... or at least I'm pretty sure... At the same time, though, at least it's brutal, I'll give it that...
        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-ArLlGLJyiaMv2F0X.png
        (Ignore the fact that it looks like a poorly drawn 8-bit Toad, but it least that way it doesn't look like something ELSE... This is why I shouldn't be allowed to be conscious after midnight.)

          I've also made a modified version of YOUR modified version, ALMOST the same price (only 1,100 more than yours is), but it very easily outlasted your test version, and could have kept going. Heck, I did a 5v5 for the heck of it and four out of five of the modified Croc-Heads survived. Here's the final version:
          image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-bcDlMcRGT7Vle3Wf.png

          Made a new ship that I'm honestly a bit iffy on, but I'm testing it versus the above ship, and so far it's scoring - in the Battle Helper - Tie (Both died to fire after being disarmed), Loss, Win, Win, Win, Loss, Win, and Win (just barely), so it's KIND OF better, but not by much, which I'm not too sure about being a GOOD thing, with the ~250,000 price difference. Either way, though, this IS a design that I know would be very good for PVE, so I'm just gonna leave it up to interpretation...
          image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-F278dEkL04zijg1v.png
          I made a slightly smaller version initially, but it just caved way too easily, which is why I then worked my way to this version.

            [Disclaimer: not a teacher]
            Odd. The only thing that looks different is the armoring scheme.
            I_Am_Jarvis You have too many reactors. Note that you've exceeded the recommended maximum power bar, meaning the ship can't use all of the power the reactors are generating.

            Hatter
            Yeah, that is in fact the difference, but note that it made all the difference. As for the reactors, refer back to when I mentioned travel time. Granted, I could probably do without so many in the middle, but the shields in particular are a bit of a pain in terms of maintenance. Still, I'll see what I can do...

              @Alpha would probably have given you the teacher role by now if he were active Hatter. If he does not respond I think it is safe to assume the outcome and recognize you as a teacher anyway.

                does anyone have any idea how to improve this fighter?
                image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-Amf1Jf23BbtJOKHq.png

                  dodo_bear I'm no teacher, but I can already tell you that you are seriously lacking in thruster balance. With those tiny things as brake thrusters to those Large Thrusters, you'll be spending way too long trying to stop and you don't even have decent turning. Also, it would be smarter to have the cannons at the front and the lasers at the sides, because the cannons have a smaller firing arc in that they can't fire forwards or backwards if you have them at the sides. I did some testing with this craft, and it's practically dead even with this small ship of mine, which costs roughly 10,000 less, which is really not the best sign, since it's not even well defended, but a glass cannon.
                  image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-GpRr9ujyiUC3ZJK0.png
                  Edit: I've done a bit of work on it, optimized the design, and even added an FTL drive to it, all for no less than 850 below the price of your original craft, and I can guarantee you that this is significantly better. In testing this versus your design, this one scored first to five wins over yours' one at the very start by a small margin.
                  image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-WeXzoyW9n2S3xONk.png

                  I_Am_Jarvis Okay. I'll repaint it so it isn't so gross, and we have the new RY!

                    I_Am_Jarvis I found a couple more silly fighters. Look how ridiculous these are!

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-yPLELwoCYpffxG7g.png

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-ZTub66tNkBlQGFoX.png

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-Ock81DSoWTex2FFx.png

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-wtwmqpwxd67NTgmC.png

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-AGWqgNmVQLcYKcWp.png

                    image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/7033-FU91vxBcHxvC1AkZ.png

                    dodo_bear They look like yours imho

                      dodo_bear they also have literally no other thrusters than forwards

                        Anything to say about this?
                        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6954-xduIajLwZfzsnYkQ.png

                        Note: Uses WH40K.

                        Here's one for you guys... This is more of an old concept design I did a while back, which sort of takes advantage of numbers over sheer quality, versus a recent project of mine that values defense over speed. So... here's the thing... This...
                        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-lAf9kv4W775tStK0.png
                        Will conquer THIS any time, any day, in a one on one...
                        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-UAjUmBT8mmpU1LDQ.png
                        Yet the AI can't seem to handle tackling THIS, which is the full concept of the above put into action, as a 4v1...
                        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/6799-2ssCxiSD9cm7zzsP.png

                        This was more or less me experimenting, in terms of the newer one, but the old one is just that, old, though I DID modify it a bit before and during testing, and either way, the full concept trashed the equal number of the former and lost as a singular "module," so that much isn't what's being put on the table... In any case, I'm guessing SPEED was more or less the thing that was going on here?

                        Edit: Oh, and by the way, they're about the same in terms of cost, comparing the defensive one and each of the four "modular" craft.

                        image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/3533-0podrfJz621v5eZU.png
                        How bad am I at this?