Missile Prototype 4

Walt

Zorson-Trilucent Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, and welcome to the forums!

Zorson-Trilucent I can see why PD was changed to a long range defense. However, I think PD would make more lore sense as a short range defense. Also that makes sense intuitively. PD seems to be based on Phalanx type defense guns which have very short range. So I will echo others with my suggestion that PD and flak be flipped with PD as short range and flak as long range defense.

I'm leaning in the direction of reverting PD back to short-range defense as well, though I'm not sure I want to make flak really long range (especially if it can be used offensively).

Zorson-Trilucent I don't like the narrow field of fire. I think it should be at least twice as wide.

I think I agree that it's too narrow; 30 degrees is very narrow, especially considering the issues it has targeting. I might try changing it to 45 for the next prototype.

Zorson-Trilucent In my testing, the Flak works great as long as the enemy ship is out of the flak's range. As soon as the flak can hit an enemy ship, it ignores projectiles.

Yeah I'm aware, going to make some changes to the flak's targeting so that it will prefer shooting at weapons even if it is already shooting at a ship.

Zorson-Trilucent I really liked the interceptor missiles from a few prototypes ago and I was sorry to see them go. Any chance we can bring them back? They were very nostalgic for me. In the show SeaQuest DSV, the hero sub often used interceptor torpedoes to shoot down incoming torpedoes. I did not think they were boring at all. Maybe they could also shot down other projectiles like flak does. Or just leave them as a pure anti-missile. I think they could use the same ammo as HE so no need for another factory. Or maybe they could use cannon ammo?

I really like those missiles too, they were pretty cool, but they didn't really fit into the game very well from a balance perspective. They might make more sense once fighters & drones get added. Hopefully I'll be able to add them at some point.

Zorson-Trilucent I love how the new mines spread themselves out into a minefield automatically, however I think it takes far to long to deploy a decent sized minefield. I my testing I needed a large densely packed minefield to have a chance of doing any measurable amount of damage with mines. Below this critical mass, the mines were quickly swatted away with just a low number of PD turrets, and the density was so low the chance of one hitting was near zero.

I'll think about making mines build/launch quicker, that does seem like probably a good thing if they aren't attracted to enemy ships.

CrazyBirdie

I tried using the new missile types in creative. However, when I had a missile launcher connected to an active missile factory (any type other than HE), the crew would let the missiles stay in the factory and go back to their quarters. As a result, I can only use HE missiles. Otherwise, they never get to the launcher.

Walt

CrazyBirdie You need to select the missile launcher and change it to shoot a different type of missiles.

CrazyBirdie

Walt You need to select the missile launcher and change it to shoot a different type of missiles.

How do I do that? I haven't been able to select any part on my own ships. Is it some setting?

Lafiel

As I said long ago mines in space have to be mobile otherwise they are useless. This just proves it. It would be nice if once a ship is destroyed the mines would return to their mine field position or reorganize the mine field. I suppose that's too much to ask for.

It really makes no sense for PD not able to engage at short range as well has having a low arc. The ability to dynamically change arc based on range would solve this.

Flak for long range anti-ship use is fine; perhaps require it to switch ammo type would make more sense.

As for targetting differently from other weapons, well, just have them in their own group. This is more of a player use issue than game mechanic.

Walt

Lafiel This just proves it.

How so?

Lafiel

Walt What said Harvest and others about how they can be easily picked off before.

Walt

Lafiel Well the main point of mines (when deployed pre-battle as opposed to in-battle) is to slow down enemy ships, not necessarily to do a ton of damage. And the rate at which mines can be deployed is something that I can tune as necessary.

Fort_Master_Gustav

@Lafiel I'd say otherwise, mines being stationary isn't really a big problem, since they follow the rules of any other projectile, you just have to add momentum into them and it's basically doing the work of 16 LC shots, since they ignore shielding it's even easier to damage seriously a ship with just 3-4 mines, my statement is that they are too overpowered right now, yes PD and flak can get them, but that's easily countered for a gigantic gain on the mine ship's part, since they are the weapon in the update with basically the lowest cost/damage outcome.

Lafiel

It's not about making them overpowered or able to kill ships outright or fast firing but they must pose such a threat or annoyance that people rather want to avoid than confront. So being able to chase and somewhat hard to deal with is what they should be.

As in-battle I'm fine with slow firing rate as long as I can "drop" them and force a reaction from the enemy.

Vess

I think putting EMP in the mines would help fit that slowing role. A speed reducing effect could also be cool
Also I feel a Combination Factory/Launcher would be more appropriate. Rather than Having them as part of the missile system.

Atarlost

Walt Gonna play devil's advocate here: Why is this a role that needs filling? Why can't missiles just be balanced to not be OP without PD/flak, leaving flak with the role of defending flanks and rear?

Absolutely nothing. Previously they could not be balanced without PD because they dealt damage through shields and to non-surface rooms. Now that explosion mechanics have been changed they can be balanced solely by adjusting their damage values.

Tobi-wan_Kenobi

Atarlost Previously they could not be balanced without PD because they dealt damage through shields and to non-surface rooms.

Wow, I never really gave it much thought, but this was the real power of missiles, and why they were so hard to balance. Now that shields will be more useful against missiles, PD and flak don't have to be super good at missile defense. They're supplemental defense against pure missile builds. Which means PD really needs to do more than shoot missiles.

Atarlost

Tobi-wan_Kenobi Wow, I never really gave it much thought, but this was the real power of missiles, and why they were so hard to balance. Now that shields will be more useful against missiles, PD and flak don't have to be super good at missile defense. They're supplemental defense against pure missile builds. Which means PD really needs to do more than shoot missiles.

Or PD can be straight up removed now.

Vess

Mine layer/Factory
I think this would be an interesting composition for the mine layer Factory. it's also got a unique config and surface area requirement to help with Diversity.

Walt

Vess That looks cool, but probably isn't what I want in terms of gameplay. I would prefer the part that launches mines be different from the part that builds mines so that the player has more choices about balancing mine laying speeds vs mine production speeds. Also, I'm still leaning towards mines being launched from the regular missile launcher (which would become a generic "launcher" that can launch more than just missiles), though I realize that's a bit weird.

Walt

CrazyBirdie How do I do that? I haven't been able to select any part on my own ships. Is it some setting?

There is a "Require Ctrl To Select Parts" setting that is turned on by default until you reach a certain point in the tutorials.

samepage The idea is to optimize the loading task by limiting the number of crews that can be assigned to the factory based on the remaining ammo in the factory. For example, a full factory with 12 missiles parts can allow 12 crews loading from it. But a depleted factory with 0 reserves can only allow 6 crews accessing at the same time. Theoretically this could improve the loading task without having missiles separate from other parts. Though I am not completely sure this is the right numbers, nor do I know this is doable with the current game engine.

I suspect this would lead to crew frequently going to farther away factories more frequently than necessary, but it's probably worth trying.

samepage l have noticed that recently there were a lot of designs using only battery to power the missile factory. I take this isn't an intended function of the battery. Perhaps this should be fixed in the next update?

I don't really see why this shouldn't be allowed. If anything needs to be changed, perhaps the power consumption of missile factories should be increased.

samepage

Regarding to the crew's AI. I have a suggestion that may or may not improve the crew's performance on the loading task of missiles. Currently when the factories depleted, they occupy way more crews than they actually needed. This causes people to compartmentalize missiles module with minimal crews (8) in order to save credits. Because if you use missiles without separating them from other stuffs, they can eat away a lot of your crews (14 at top), greatly hindering the ship's performance.

The idea is to optimize the loading task by limiting the number of crews that can be assigned to the factory based on the remaining ammo in the factory. For example, a full factory with 12 missiles parts can allow 12 crews loading from it. But a depleted factory with 0 reserves can only allow 6 crews accessing at the same time. Theoretically this could improve the loading task without having missiles separate from other parts. Though I am not completely sure this is the right numbers, nor do I know this is doable with the current game engine. It may not stop people from compartmentalizing their missiles. But at least it will give them less reason to do so.

Speaking of compartment missiles, l have noticed that recently there were a lot of designs using only battery to power the missile factory. I take this isn't an intended function of the battery. Perhaps this should be fixed in the next update?

CrazyBirdie

Walt There is a "Require Ctrl To Select Parts" setting that is turned on by default until you reach a certain point in the tutorials.

Thank you.

Vess

Walt The mines behave so differently from the rest of the Launchers munitions. Entangling the Mine and missile economy doesn't feel right.. Storage of mines in particular is very expensive; One mine per 2x6 space is immense.
Also The field behavior is it's own balancing puzzle and adding the complications of launcher/storage/Factory ratios just makes them harder to balance.

Currently I feel PD, Flak, and EMP are almost ship able, where as mines and nukes need a lot more work.

Walt

Vess Storage of mines in particular is very expensive; One mine per 2x6 space is immense.

Yeah I think I agree with this. My current thinking is that mines should be easy to store (maybe 3-4 per launcher/storage) but slow to produce.

Vess Entangling the Mine and missile economy doesn't feel right..

Yeah I get what you're saying. The advantage of having them use the same launcher is that then the launcher can be reused during different stages of battle. Like at the beginning the player can lay mines, and then they can swap over to missiles once the enemy is within range. It provides more tactical choice within the battle than if they are separate parts.

Vess

Walt I love area denial in games, but with out environmental hazards or barriers or attack/defense game modes the mines are are not likely to be used in a phase of battle. Turtle tactics don't work in a game about open area dueling. And circle of death not withstanding most battles are done with both parties moving, It would be impossible to predict where to mine.
Maybe shelf the mines till we get more game modes...