Kroom's Forge (0.15.11+)

thenoobmannYT

Kroom yeah no s**t how about posting a video instead

and they were within 50m

BlackHole-Pine

thenoobmannYT Fucking hell, don't be such a fucking baby, you don't need a fucking video to understand how the teleporter works. You also dont need to insult him by saying no shit. I doubt Kroom would want to make a video about using such a simple mechanic, for the 1% who are dumb enough to not know how they work.

Kroom

thenoobmannYT Sigh... can you explain a little more what exactly is your problem? did you set the right ammo? do you have factories? did you activate the teleporter via the button at the lower left?

thenoobmannYT

no offence o-o

thenoobmannYT

BlackHole-Pine i said no offence for a reason. and i figured out how to use it so its cool either way

Relcore

burnt!!

Altraxia

Absolutely scorched!!! (no offense)

thenoobmannYT

Kroom i figured it out... my bad.
i didnt mean any offence from that

Atarlost

I think this mod kind of needs a smaller cannon ammo storage. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point to having the hangars reload cannon ammo when the only storage to put them in is the same size as a factory.

I'd also like to see a >240 degree arc on the turrets so that centerline turrets can fire usefully into both broadsides.

mah_dispenser

Atarlost now this... i like!

Kroom

i'm thinking to set all roof turret firing arc to 200d so centerline turrets can shot to the side to. About the small ammo storage, the vanilla one has already a very little amount of ammo and i dont think it will be useful to have a smaller one with even less ammo.

Atarlost

Kroom The issue is that with the factory the same size as the only storage there's no point in having ammo transfer.

A half storage would presumably hold 16 shots, which isn't very much for the cannons, but could be enough for the mass driver if it didn't use as much ammo per shot as a railgun that does more than three times as much damage.

Going over the numbers the Mass Driver does not appear that it would be in danger of being overpowered if it was more ammo efficient. The Plasma Lance puts out 1333 dps at 150m using 6 tiles. The Fusion Cannon puts out 2000 dps (1000 vs shields) at 150m using 3 tiles with boosters one tile long adding +100% damage. The Mass Driver puts out 1000 dps at 100m using 4 tiles with boosters occupying 2 tiles and adding only 15% damage and 15m range. An 8 tile long Mass Driver still doesn't quite match the damage of a Plasma Lance and lags noticably in range and unless there's an unlisted penetration boost has less penetration. A fighter that fits on a pad can only have 10 tiles of railgun for 1450 dps at 145m, which with the lesser penetration depth is still not clearly better than a plasma lance.

An ammo storage or factory is the same size as Walt's small reactor, which will comfortably serve two plasma lances or any combination of up to six fusion loaders and fusion boosters. A 10 tile mass driver and factory come to 16 kilocreds, while two plasma lances and a 2x2 reactor come to 25 kilocreds, but do pretty near twice the damage at a slightly longer range with a bit of power left over. An 8 tile 5 booster fusion cannon and reactor cost 30 kilocreds for a bit over four times the damage against shields and better than eight times the damage against shields and doesn't need a crewman. If the mass driver only used 1 or 2 ammo and there was a 1x2 16 bullet storage they would still be the weakest and least efficient modular weapon in the mod, but at least they would be able to fit in spaces the wrong shape for a fusion cannon and 2x2 reactor.

One quality of life issue for the next release is that the point defense capable guns in the mod don't have the mode options Walt's point defense does and I didn't see anyone else mention it in this thread going back to the last release announce..

Kroom

Atarlost The Mass drive use 6 bullets because it's a corvette weapon and it has the potential of doing the same damage as the railgun as it's accelerators doesn't have diminish returns. Usually weapons that use bullets are big, so adding an ammo storage/factory is not a problem for them.

Atarlost The problem i see with a pd turret that can go behind armor is that when it turns the tip of the weapons will probably go inside the armor part. I can probably give the Ion array a little bit more arc or maybe i could do a roof pd if i find a way to make it different in some aspect to the vanilla one so it does not replace it.

Frenchy_guy GenericUser984 It works for that version.

Atarlost

Building corvette/frigate scale stuff I've found myself frequently wanting a side mount point defense of some sort. Ion arrays almost work, but their arc doesn't cover the front enough when mounted sideways and they're not as good at being point defense as proper PD or laser/neutron/particle turrets while being bulkier. Mounting Walt's PD or the fighter energy weapon turrets a tile over creates a large step that badly interrupts the contours of a small ship using 4:1 sloped armor.

Ideally I'd like something with the properties of Walt's PD or the fighter energy weapon turrets mounted to the side like the side mounted fighter guns so it can poke through a single tile gap in the contour armor.

iWannaDie

bruh, mods are hard to balance, it takes time

Atarlost

iWannaDie Balance is math, at least for the first pass. Later balance passes a lot of the difficulty is getting people to give feedback so you know where the problems are. Discouraging people from giving feedback is how you make it take an eternity to balance something.

GenericUser984

ooohh ho ho hooo this is gonna be FUN

Frenchy_guy

Hey, i would like to know if it works on cosmoteer 0.15.5c ?

GenericUser984

Frenchy_guy
i tried it, it doesn't seem to, sadly

GenericUser984

Kroom
ah it does, huh...

Atarlost

Kroom
The Mass Driver only surpasses the railgun in damage because it's narrower, though at the sizes where it's actually good it will run out of power due to an inability to deliver batteries to the launcher fast enough to power all the accelerators and sustained damage output will stop rising. I'm going to assume that the example corvettes using mass drivers are the scale you're aiming to make useful. The Raven has 5 accelerators and the Venture 6. At that scale the factory is 25 or 28.6% of the volume of the gun. And, incidentally, neither ship has the factories to sustain them or anywhere to put them. And the longer of them falls just short of the range of a railgun with no accelerators. The Venture's mass drivers occupy 16 tiles each, cost 17000 credits, and do 1900 DPS. A no accelerator railgun occupies 12 tiles, costs 15000 credits, and does 2500 DPS. At this scale railguns outperform mass drivers while using less ammo. They need side access for power, but are more compact. It's at larger scales that mass drivers start to become competitive, not the corvette scale they're intended for. Only at 13 accelerators does a mass driver start to outperform a railgun half its length, and only in range; the railgun will still deal more damage with greater penetration. It's not until 25 accelerators that the mass driver also surpasses the damage of a railgun half its length. I don't think it's very reasonable to call something more than 54 tiles long a corvette. To fulfill its stated role rather than being a battleship weapon the mass driver needs stronger base stats, weaker accelerators, and diminishing returns on accelerators. And probably capped range not exceeding the railgun's 400m.

I don't want PD that goes behind armor exactly, I want PD that has the room on the side instead of behind so it can stick out of a 1 tile gap in sideways armor like a laser blaster or electrobolt. Improving the ion array's arc wouldn't help because they aren't actually any good as point defense. Improving the laser/particle/neutron turret arc might serve as they actually provide some measure of useful antimissile defense, though not as good as vanilla point defense. I'm not sure why the barrel clipping into armor would be a problem. The laser blaster and electrobolt can clip into armor next to them, but they recognize that they're occluded and don't try to fire. The fighter guns try to fire when clipping into armor, but the comparison I made to them is only that they have the arc centered to the left or right of the room rather than directly in front of it, not that I think the side PD turret should project through armor like them.

Kroom

Atarlost I'm thinking to do some changes to the Mass Drive to adjust the amount of bullets needed per second and also to make it shorter but keeping the same price.
I did some tests increasing the accelerators buff from 15% to 30% and the price from 2000 to 4000 and also reducing the firing speed from 3 to 4 seconds.
Here are the results at a similar cost (the amount of accelerators in brackets are with the changes I made):

Mass Drive +8(+4) accelerators(+120%) -> 22000cost with crew, 2200 dps, 220 range, 11 penetration
Railgun +0 accelerators(+0%) ---------------> 22000cost with crew, 2500 dps, 200 range, 15 penetration

Mass Drive +12(+6) accelerators(+180%) -> 30000cost with crew, 2800 dps, 280 range, 14 penetration
Railgun +1 accelerators(+20%) ---------------> 29500cost with crew, 3000 dps, 240 range, 18 penetration

Mass Drive +16(+8) accelerators(+240%) -> 38000cost with crew, 3400 dps, 340 range, 17 penetration
Railgun +2 accelerators(+34%) ---------------> 37000cost with crew, 3350 dps, 268 range, 20 penetration
At this amount of accelerators the Mass Drive can shot 8 times before starting to lose energy every now and then.

Mass Drive +20(+10) accelerators(+300%) -> 46000cost with crew, 4000 dps, 400 range, 20 penetration
Railgun +3 accelerators(+46%) -----------------> 44500cost with crew, 3650 dps, 292 range, 21.9 penetration
At this amount of accelerators the Mass Drive can shot 6 times before starting to lose energy often.

Mass Drive +24(+12) accelerators(+360%) -> 54000cost with crew, 4600 dps, 460 range, 23 penetration
Railgun +4 accelerators(+57%) -----------------> 52000cost with crew, 3925 dps, 314 range, 23.55 penetration
At this amount of accelerators the Mass Drive can shot 5 times before starting to lose energy too often.
At this point is better to start using Railguns due to the long time to recharge unless used for its range.

The Mass Drive is always longer and has more range, the railgun is always shorter but wider and has better penetration damage.
My idea of corvettes is on the size of 20 to 60 tiles long and Mass Drives of 12 to 28 tiles long.
I dont want to do diminishing returns neither capping the range at 400m because it will be too similar to railguns.
I hope with this changes the Mass Drive will feel stronger.

The energy turrets and the beam array they where never intended to be a main defense agains missiles, they are more like a support for the other main weapons (pd and flak).
The problem i have with increaseing the arc of the energy turrets its mainly the sprite:

image https://forum.cosmoteer.net/assets/images/765-eHa3AExdECjMpRlT.png

As you can see if i increase the arc, the turret will go inside the armor and the crew member will be exposed to space.
I have increased the beam array arc from 180 to 190 and the damage to missiles so it can destroy at least a nuke every time it shot, still i has a very poor rotation speed so its very inefective agains anything else.
I think that the best thing for what you want will be to create an entirely new weapon or change the vanilla pd arc.

Roasted

jesus. why are you posting so much text. its just a videogame.