Laser nerf/Cannon buff

Dalas120

Walt Most parts follow a simple HP formula: 1000 HP per tile. Front-line weapons (lasers, EB, cannons) get an extra 1000 HP per surface tile.

Don't lasers/EB only have 1 surface tile? Or do I not understand what you mean?

Walt I'm hesitant to lower the HP of lasers/EB because that makes a laser easier to kill than a crew's quarters or control room, which seems... wrong?

Personally, I wouldn't mind a laser (only 1x2) being easier to kill than a 2x2 part, as long as 2 lasers (2x2) are tougher to kill. If 2 lasers were weaker than a 2x2 control room I agree that would feel wrong.

Walt I can definitely see significantly buffing the cannons though. I think that would help a lot and could make up for the fact that they tend to be a little explosive once they are killed. Perhaps tripling the "front-line" bonus so that Small Cannons go 6000->10000 and Large Cannons go 12000->20000, and probably buff armor penetration on both as well.

That sounds reasonable to me, especially if cannon penetration is getting a major rebalance anyway. Though nearly doubling hp might be too much.

But I do think lasers could use some kind of nerf, not just buffs to cannons. If decreasing hp isn't an option, maybe decrease range a little? As @Equalizer pointed out, the global range buff was a big factor in making lasers stronger.

Walt

Dalas120 Don't lasers/EB only have 1 surface tile? Or do I not understand what you mean?

Yeah, lasers have 3 tiles * 1000 + 1 surface tile * 1000 = 4000 and EB have 4 tiles * 1000 + 1 surface tile * 1000 = 6000 oh wait EB should only have 5000 I'll fix that 😃

Dalas120 I wouldn't mind a laser (only 1x2)

I'm counting the turret as a tile, so 1x3.

Dalas120 If decreasing hp isn't an option, maybe decrease range a little?

Yeah I can see that. I don't think there's a good reason lasers have a longer range than EB.

Lafiel

Lasers used to be weak before cannons and ammo factories were nerfed. Cannons can easily dominate by tweaking any of their stats while keeping their shot speed.
I think the new penetration system is good but the problem is damage handling. If the first hit does a lot of damage cannons can easily tear a ship apart with as many shots as there are parts in LOS. This remains valid and it really doesn't matter how the damage is distributed as long as the ratio between first hit and penetration damage remains high.

Dalas120

Lafiel it really doesn't matter how the damage is distributed as long as the ratio between first hit and penetration damage remains high.

Walt These changes combined make me think cannon penetration depth and/or damage will need a serious rebalance. (I've already doubled damage to account for the falloff with penetration.)

Have you considered removing impact damage entirely, for both cannons and railguns? I think that this would really move power away from surface damage and towards penetration, which is both interesting and emphasizes internal design.

Equalizer

Dalas120 A concern with too much weight on only penetration damage is that a ship can be designed such that most of the penetration damage is wasted (shot flies right through the ship and out the back). This was very noticeable with the original rail gun version before the damage pool was added,

Walt

Dalas120 Have you considered removing impact damage entirely, for both cannons and railguns? I think that this would really move power away from surface damage and towards penetration, which is both interesting and emphasizes internal design.

I think this could make sense with the new penetration damage fall-off.

Walt

Equalizer A concern with too much weight on only penetration damage is that a ship can be designed such that most of the penetration damage is wasted (shot flies right through the ship and out the back). This was very noticeable with the original rail gun version before the damage pool was added,

Is this really a bad thing? I'm not convinced super long railguns should be that devastating vs small ships.

Equalizer

Walt Well damage spread over lots of tiles without the first tiles receiving boosted damage encourages walls or 'frames' (for example the triangles that are empty in the middle). A frame can be less than 5 tiles thick in the case of lasers so penetration beyond that is wasted.

Lafiel

True but triangles are only one case among many. The majority aren't triangles. But I suppose it matters for tournaments. How about a rough division of 40%:35%:25% for first-hit-damage:mid-range fall-off:final-fall-off. So everyone gets at least 70% damage (a passing mark).

Mc2

Equalizer

Currently, the best way to use cannons seems to be to ram the enemy ship. It is not clear whether cannons are still weaker than lasers when used in this way.

But it mean that you have cannon wall fast enough to ram enemy before he kill your CR or cut you in half, best way for laser wall (mostly with triangle shape) is to kite while cannon shells never reach it while laser easily kill enemy.

So wall can ram and kill laser wall only if laser wall cannot kite fast enough (as seen on tourney).

nop

One more thought about cannons/penetration, it would be cool if the shot didn't instantly drop in velocity when it penetrates the first part. Often a cannon shell will graze some structure and suddenly be moving at half speed. You would expect it to exchange some momentum every time it penetrates a part, based on the resistance. Might make it slightly easier to get hits on internal parts.

Lafiel

nop This is more a technical & visual reason (set stats) like countering lag and improve hit calculation. It has no influence and does not change how damage is done. Although, a fast turning ship can "redirect" where it goes while penetrating. And btw structure no longer have resistance.

Dalas120

nop You would expect it to exchange some momentum every time it penetrates a part, based on the resistance.

nop Knockback on penetration resistance would also reduce railgun knockback when it penetrates all the way through a ship.

This sounds like an excellent idea

nop

If penetration weapons are shifting away from impact damage, it makes sense to not only have knockback at the point of first impact (I think this is what it does now?)

Lafiel And btw structure no longer have resistance.

Does this mean structure doesn't slow down cannon shells?

Lafiel

nop Knockback has always been there and not a small amount imho.
Shots just pass structures now. They should slow down as usual but maybe Walt will or did changed it already. Haven't watched out for this bit.

nop

Knockback on penetration resistance would also reduce railgun knockback when it penetrates all the way through a ship.

Lafiel

nop Yeah, only matters if the shot comes out the other end. Otherwise it doesn't matter how you divide the knockback because the sum the target ship receives would still be the same.
Edit: Apropos, when the bullet comes to a stop or dies why not apply all damage left to a final knockback like when it's stuck and giving off all its remaining kinetic energy.