Formations

GodoftheGrove

Right now, when I play the game, things go south when I have a ship I'm happy with, and I start playing with formations. The ships outside the central ship need some serious mobility to get the formation going. It just takes forever for the formation to start to move, and, if targetting a fast moving ship, the formation will break a lot and it comes to a standstill.

Part of the problem is that the central ship will turn with the enemy, but it won't move until the formation is complete, even if that means some ships outside formation would be picked up quicker.

Also some ships will move towards the formation point, overshoot it and then turn, instead of anticipating when to turn to get in formation quicker.

As a whole, the formation will move far slower than the ships that make up the formation, presumably because it'll all grind to a halt if one ship is out of formation. I even had times where ships out of formation simply refused to move, and I had to push the formation button again to get it moving again.

I also read there was an option for ships to stay in formation even in attack mode. I can't find the option, really.

So, formations need better logic. It would also help to have the option to manually set the max speed of a ship, and have some graph showing the max speed of ships in all directions, so I can manually place ships in a position, then point them to a location, and they all move at the same speed, as an alternative to formations, so everyone at least arrive at the same time, or in the planned order.

Because yeah, when I get to the point where I have multiple ships, thing become a chore instead of more fun.

Edit: This is partly addressed in https://trello.com/c/3ymn2tgX/31-display-directional-ship-speed-rotation-in-build-mode

Walt

GodoftheGrove Part of the problem is that the central ship will turn with the enemy, but it won't move until the formation is complete, even if that means some ships outside formation would be picked up quicker.

Hmm... I could prevent the lead ship from turning until the follow ships are in position, but then the lead ship would just turn again and the follow ships would have to get into the new position, which would probably make the problem even worse. I'm not sure what the solution is here.

GodoftheGrove Also some ships will move towards the formation point, overshoot it and then turn, instead of anticipating when to turn to get in formation quicker.

This is really just a general problem that happens when a ship has to make a course-correction (usually due to avoiding another ship) and now doesn't have enough reverse thrust to slow and hit its target. It's particularly bad in formations because there are other ships in close proximity that need to be avoided. The solution would require a radically smarter ship flight A.I. which probably isn't going to ever happen. :/

GodoftheGrove As a whole, the formation will move far slower than the ships that make up the formation, presumably because it'll all grind to a halt if one ship is out of formation.

What's the alternative, leave the ship behind?

GodoftheGrove I even had times where ships out of formation simply refused to move, and I had to push the formation button again to get it moving again.

I haven't seen this happen. When it happens next, please send me a saved game so that I can figure out the problem and fix it.

GodoftheGrove I also read there was an option for ships to stay in formation even in attack mode. I can't find the option, really.

Settings -> Gameplay -> Break Formation To Attack (turn it off)

Lafiel If anything the game should set that speed for all ships in the formation.

All ships try to match the speed of the lead ship.

GodoftheGrove The problem is that formations are significantly slower than the slowest ship in the formation

This makes sense, right? A bunch of jet fighters flying at maximum speed aren't going to be able to stay in formation, and the ones out ahead are gonna have to slow a bit for the ones behind to get back into position.

Lafiel Then perhaps the requirement of "meeting" or reaching position should be relaxed by a some distance from the point's center. So ships don't have to be exact in position and proceed with formation flight sooner.

This is certainly the easiest thing for me to adjust. I'll try loosening it and see if that makes formations work better when flying.

GodoftheGrove The formation should at least get moving and sort itself out on the fly.

The lead ship would have to slow down dramatically to allow the other ships to get into position.

GodoftheGrove Also, ships should be more flexible on where they should be in the formation. Say I have a capital ship and 4 identical support ships, they all should go to whatever slot is closest at average, and not have to flip positions when you suddenly do a 180.

The player would need some way of designating when ships could go any any position and when they should go in a specific position. I'm not opposed to having this option, but I don't have any immediate ideas of how the U.I. for that should work.

GodoftheGrove That is, increase speed until you are there, and reduce speed when you are close by taking into account the (de)acceleration factor. It's like calculating gravity and reversing it; D=.5Gt2.

Ships already do this, including when in formation.

CGDW

Yeah, formations are slow and need to be better. It would help a lot if the slowest ship could just get moving and the others joined into formation as it is going.

Ships don't currently have the ability to predict how to move in order to effectively get to a moving destination, which they would need to be added for on the fly formation joining to work.

Lafiel

Guys this is not solely Cosmoteer's problem. The same applies in real life that's why the speed of a formation is determined by the slowest ship. If anything the game should set that speed for all ships in the formation. Secondly, flying and coordinating is the commander's responsibility. We can't micromanage everything so wingman ships should be well designed for maneuverability so they don't miss and circle their station points.
It's easier to fix these like this than creating a smart enough AI. if that is even possible for the limited computer power we got.

GodoftheGrove

Lafiel The problem is that formations are significantly slower than the slowest ship in the formation, and the formation completely stops if something is even slightly out of formation, instead of moving on and fixing the formation mid-flight. Also, getting into formation is done in a really inefficient way right now, with ships overshooting their position regularly, or refusing to move at all.

Lafiel

Then perhaps the requirement of "meeting" or reaching position should be relaxed by a some distance from the point's center. So ships don't have to be exact in position and proceed with formation flight sooner.

GodoftheGrove

Lafiel If you can see your ships' speed data, you could set a max speed for the leading ship. The wingmen could then catch up mid-flight to their position. How quickly they do so depends on the max speed of the main ship.

The formation should at least get moving and sort itself out on the fly. Also, ships should be more flexible on where they should be in the formation. Say I have a capital ship and 4 identical support ships, they all should go to whatever slot is closest at average, and not have to flip positions when you suddenly do a 180.

Lafiel

I think your suggestion is too complex to handle and certainly require a lot of redesigning the whole flight system and coordinate systems not to mention the necessary decision making of the AI. And I think the end result is that ships become indecisive of what and where they have to go.
As for the flipping there's no good solution, after all they are supposed to follow the lead ship, hence, his direction. How should they know when not to follow? Even human commanders fail in formation battle. The onlyy solution I can think of is to have the enemy position as a secondary "guide post" or adding battle plan tactics to AI which is obviously far more troublesome.

GodoftheGrove

Lafiel No, it's not hard. Most of the logic is solved the same way as missile tracking. That is, increase speed until you are there, and reduce speed when you are close by taking into account the (de)acceleration factor. It's like calculating gravity and reversing it; D=.5Gt^2.

But I guess you never use formations, because otherwise you'd really understand the problems it has.

Lafiel

I'm a modder I can understand without playing. 😆 I don't think it's that simple. You got real world coordinates and at least a set of formation coordinates and these must be updated every tick. The vectors changes every tick. Speed and direction has to be adjusted every tick. It's not like solving a simple equation. And then add all the decision making you suggests.

GodoftheGrove

Walt Hmm... I could prevent the lead ship from turning until the follow ships are in position, but then the lead ship would just turn again and the follow ships would have to get into the new position, which would probably make the problem even worse. I'm not sure what the solution is here.

Walt This is certainly the easiest thing for me to adjust. I'll try loosening it and see if that makes formations work better when flying.

This. A slightly loosening of formations, along with not an all-out stop, but just slowing down enough for the straggler to catch up would help. Ofcourse the problem is that the big unknown is what is an acceptable time to restore formations mid-flight. But right now any break in formation brings the entire thing to a halt, which is... logical... and maybe even correct but it doesn't "feel" right.

Walt This makes sense, right? A bunch of jet fighters flying at maximum speed aren't going to be able to stay in formation, and the ones out ahead are gonna have to slow a bit for the ones behind to get back into position.

Walt What's the alternative, leave the ship behind?

Point. It makes sense, and it's not directly the problem, I guess. It's just that the whole formation stops completely instead of slowing down a bit to fix itself.

Walt The player would need some way of designating when ships could go any any position and when they should go in a specific position. I'm not opposed to having this option, but I don't have any immediate ideas of how the U.I. for that should work.

I'm hoping to have an advanced formation editor at some point, outside the thing where it happens on the map. So I can set position, but also have a mirror option etc. It's harder for a ragtag fleet to decide who goes where, but generally, formations have symetrical builds: [wing 1][leader][wing 2]. Wing 1 and wing 2 could decide to switch when a 180 happens, to have things go quicker. Maybe only automaticcaly, when the wing ships are the same.

Walt Settings -> Gameplay -> Break Formation To Attack (turn it off)

Ah, I was expecting a toggle within the formation menu/context. The workaround for me is to have Break Formation on Off, then manually break the formation when needed. It would be more intuitive to have a toggle in context, but it's not a showstopper.

Anyway, thanks for replying, because I love this game and I think an advanced formation system (or at least a better functioning one) would add more depth, and a next level step once reaching a certain point in the game. Right now it becomes a frustration, so I hope to see that a more relaxed formation system makes it feel better. I'm even not against the game "cheating" a bit to have formations work better. Like a secret afterburner mode so stragglers catch up a little bit faster or react better on formation course corrections, so there is some slowdown on the formation leader but not as much.