Cosmoteer Release Candidate 0.14.1_rc2

SpaceCat

Mc2 Railgun could have explosive shell, but in realy, its impact energy

ok so lets just assume the ammo factory produces non explosive shells for the railgun (and explosive ones for the cannon) ...

actually just as "reasonable" 😉

Dalas120

SpaceCat Who says it ever produces explosive shells? Neither the large or standard cannon has any kind of explosion damage

SpaceCat

Dalas120 always looked like explosions that happen when a shell hits - also cannons do splash damage afaik 0.o

Dalas120

SpaceCat also cannons do splash damage afaik 0.o

Nope, just impact and penetration. Currently missiles are the only splash-damage weapon.

But you could argue - why does ammo storage explode if they aren't explosive shells?

SpaceCat

Dalas120 shells normally have gunpowder in them - don't they? - i'm no expert.
I know about railguns because of electronics though - they really shoot only a piece of metal noramally - so non explosive. Sometimes really little metal balls that look like in cosmoteer 🙂

OOOOoooo

(ty for clearing up splash damage.)

Mc2

Did anyone figured out haw many accelators are needed to reach tops speed and distance for railgun?

Wiky is so outdated , there is no railgun 😃

Equalizer

It seems the rail gun shot penetration is still buggy, some times the shot will just 'poof'.
(shot disappears after destroying one part and not carrying on to damage other parts even though penetration isn't used up)

Not sure what the exact conditions are to cause this though.

Walt

Equalizer It seems the rail gun shot penetration is still buggy, some times the shot will just 'poof'.
(shot disappears after destroying one part and not carrying on to damage other parts even though penetration isn't used up)

The only time I've seen this happen is when the shot is actually running out of range.

Dalas120 Allow railgun impact damage to bleed forward (in minimurgle's words: overcharge) if it completely kills the shield/armor/part that it impacted. This is crucial to prevent overkill, and IMO just makes sense. Could be accomplished by changing the railgun to fire multiple invisible projectiles (same fire rate, total damage, visuals as right now).

The more I think about this, the more I like it, and I think I have a pretty good way to code it without requiring multiple projectiles. The thing I wonder about though is, how does it interact with the existing penetration damage? Is just one pool of damage and when it runs out, the bullet despawns (if penetration doesn't run out first)? Does it get added to the existing penetration damage?

Dalas120 Reduce lvl 0 railgun range (less than 150 but more than 60), also reduce the bonus to range from accelerators. I feel like range scaling right now is strangely quick (only 3 accelerators puts you at max range).

I agree the scaling is strange, but I think it's stranger to have a railgun have way shorter range than a cannon. I'm almost thinking the range shouldn't scale at all and should just be the current maximum.

Dalas120 Allow players to aim their ship at another ship/a specific part without having to set a position. Useful for aiming your railgun/ion beam if the enemy ship is faster than you.

Only really works if your railgun is dead-center.

Dalas120 Allow internal shields to block bullets. Right now penetrating projectiles will completely ignore shields if the shield overlaps a room.

This is intentionally. I don't think I want shields to be an internal defense.

Dalas120 Some kind of graphical indicator when a railgun is ready to fire. Synchronizing railguns volleys is very important to destroy specific parts (instead of damaging many different ones), and some kind of graphical indicator would help a lot, plus it would look cool. Maybe show the railgun bullet on the rails of the loader?

Yeah seems like a good idea. I can probably do something simple.

Olexphyre I've spotted a quirk in the Railgun system. Silly Walt... you based the guns range from the loader, not the exit!

Once you build enough accelerators, you actually LOSE range! I'm posting this as I just found out, so this is my only example, but 3 accelerators has more range than 10 accelerators. This is because each range increase is smaller than the accelerator itself, to which the projectile range is calculated and fired from the loader.

Either change the way the range additions work, or swap the starting point for range from Loader to Exit.

This is not true, I just tested railguns of 8 different lengths. The shortest railguns had the least range, and the longest 5 all had exactly the same range as measured from the launcher. If you think I'm wrong, please prove it with a saved game. 😉

SpaceCat

The pros the railgun has is speed of bullets and it's ability to pierce through parts - so it should be really good at that.

I think armor piercing of the railgun should be more effective.

Right now railgun can be blocked/countered by shields and armor - and honestly does not seem to be really good at anything than bulletspeed. (Considering cost effort and the space it takes up.)

Dalas120

Some more railgun thoughts (I'm sure Walt is getting tired of all our whining):

The railgun is still really bad vs shields. Really, really, really bad - EB are more cost-effective vs armor than railguns are vs shields. I don't think the railgun needs to be good vs shields, but right now it's basically useless. And as verania pointed out, the railgun is also not great vs armor. Also, small and large railguns could use a bit more differentiation between eachother and the large cannon.

Suggestions:

Increase impact damage (+50%? +100%?). This makes railguns more useful vs armor and especially shields, while still having the lowest anti-shield cost/dps in the game.
Allow railgun impact damage to bleed forward (in minimurgle's words: overcharge) if it completely kills the shield/armor/part that it impacted. This is crucial to prevent overkill, and IMO just makes sense. Could be accomplished by changing the railgun to fire multiple invisible projectiles (same fire rate, total damage, visuals as right now).
Reduce penetration damage (-50%?). To partially compensate for the big impact damage buff, and "bleed through" ability.
Increase initial penetration amount (7->10?), reduce the bonus to penetration from accelerators. To help differentiate small railguns from large cannons (atm they feel like inferior large cannons) . The accelerator bonus reduction is to keep large railguns at roughly the same amount of penetration.
Reduce lvl 0 railgun range (less than 150 but more than 60), also reduce the bonus to range from accelerators. I feel like range scaling right now is strangely quick (only 3 accelerators puts you at max range). This adds greater differentiation between the large and small railguns.

Other assorted QOL:

Allow players to aim their ship at another ship/a specific part without having to set a position. Useful for aiming your railgun/ion beam if the enemy ship is faster than you.
Allow internal shields to block bullets. Right now penetrating projectiles will completely ignore shields if the shield overlaps a room.
Some kind of graphical indicator when a railgun is ready to fire. Synchronizing railguns volleys is very important to destroy specific parts (instead of damaging many different ones), and some kind of graphical indicator would help a lot, plus it would look cool. Maybe show the railgun bullet on the rails of the loader?

SpaceCat

Dalas120 (I'm sure Walt is getting tired of all our whining)

i think Walt actually reads all of it with a smile on his face. 😉

Olexphyre based the guns range from the loader, not the exit!

Once you build enough accelerators, you actually LOSE range!

rly should not be like that.

David623

I was thinking:
If you want people to favor larger rail gun,how about giving longer rail gun benefit
Like if they reach a certain lengh,they can go through shield but at a large de buff and it wont do dmg to the shield or the shield energy reserve

Olexphyre

I've spotted a quirk in the Railgun system. Silly Walt... you based the guns range from the loader, not the exit!

Once you build enough accelerators, you actually LOSE range! I'm posting this as I just found out, so this is my only example, but 3 accelerators has more range than 10 accelerators. This is because each range increase is smaller than the accelerator itself, to which the projectile range is calculated and fired from the loader.

Either change the way the range additions work, or swap the starting point for range from Loader to Exit.

TurboTwinky28

just gonna link my post of very very minor changes i would like for this update
https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/5090-0-14-2-railgun-my-suggestions

Dalas120

Walt The thing I wonder about though is, how does it interact with the existing penetration damage? Is just one pool of damage and when it runs out, the bullet despawns (if penetration doesn't run out first)? Does it get added to the existing penetration damage?

Maybe apply penetration damage to each room first, and then use impact damage? So a 10 pen railgun will always penetrate 10 rooms (dealing 600 penetration damage to each), but will destroy the first room or two with impact damage.

Walt I agree the scaling is strange, but I think it's stranger to have a railgun have way shorter range than a cannon. I'm almost thinking the range shouldn't scale at all and should just be the current maximum.

Sounds good to me. The speed boost on large railguns influences the effective range anyway.

Walt Only really works if your railgun is dead-center.

Players could target a part other than the one they're actually aiming at, similarly to missile aiming. Plus, most designs have spinal weapons mounted in the center. Not sure how the UI for this would work though.

Walt This is intentionally. I don't think I want shields to be an internal defense.

I disagree. IMO it's a cool, VERY niche use for shields that would only matter in a few situations, and would make shield behave more consistently. Why, for example, can shields block through structure but not through corridor? Why will internal shields block laser spam (lasers will destroy whatever was blocking the shield) but not a railgun bullet?

SpaceCat

Walt it's stranger to have a railgun have way shorter range than a cannon.

agreed ...

samepage

Walt The more I think about this, the more I like it, and I think I have a pretty good way to code it without requiring multiple projectiles. The thing I wonder about though is, how does it interact with the existing penetration damage? Is just one pool of damage and when it runs out, the bullet despawns (if penetration doesn't run out first)? Does it get added to the existing penetration damage?

My suggestion to the Railgun's penetration damage.
Instead of having a pool of damage to be reduced. The damage of the Railgun should change based on how much Penetraion value (Pen.) was left in the bullet as it went through the ship.

The damage is calculated like this:
Damage = Basic Damage * Current Pen. / Original Pen.

For example, if a bullet with 10 Pen. went through 10 blocks with 1 Pen.. The damage it dealt to each block would be 100%, 90%, ..., 20%, and 10% respectively. (Before it was 100%, 25%, ...,25%.) It will run out of the damage as soon as it ran out of the penetration.
This will greatly increase the penetration damage of the Railgun. So I think the basic damage of it should be reduced a little.

(Now think of it, this damage calculation can apply prety well on the Cannons too.)

However, non of these matter if the Railgun can be stop by just a single layer of shield.
So I suggest that the Railgun able to go through multiple shields like an EB, but reduce the damage to 25% for each shield it went through.
In this way, a very powerful Railgun can still deal damage through multiple shields, but the damage will be significantly reduced.

Lafiel

Walt The more I think about this, the more I like it, and I think I have a pretty good way to code it without requiring multiple projectiles. The thing I wonder about though is, how does it interact with the existing penetration damage? Is just one pool of damage and when it runs out, the bullet despawns (if penetration doesn't run out first)? Does it get added to the existing penetration damage?

I say have them separated even if they end up being summed for each part. Realistically it doesn't matter for a railgun type penetrator, though. Here the impact should be max and bleeding from the first hit independently from how penetration itself is bleeding. And at the last penetration point what's left is all going into impact damage because the penetrator disintegrates.

Walt This is intentionally. I don't think I want shields to be an internal defense.

Shield that are (or have sections) on the outside shouldn't be effective on the inside. This would deal with "cheating" from stacked bubble shields because they would be like two-in-one. But shields that only or are completely inside e.g. intruder defense should have a use, too. Maybe as per new parameter setting.

Walt

Dalas120 Players could target a part other than the one they're actually aiming at, similarly to missile aiming. Plus, most designs have spinal weapons mounted in the center. Not sure how the UI for this would work though.

Perhaps the ship will just automatically rotate to get as many fixed-direction weapons as possible aiming as close as possible to their targets.

Dalas120 Why, for example, can shields block through structure but not through corridor? Why will internal shields block laser spam (lasers will destroy whatever was blocking the shield) but not a railgun bullet?

The "in-fiction" answer is that shields only work on the outside. Which is the biggest reason why I don't currently allow shields to block inside ships -- it just seems "wrong".

Dalas120

Walt Perhaps the ship will just automatically rotate to get as many fixed-direction weapons as possible aiming as close as possible to their targets.

I don't think this would be very popular - people are always looking for more manual control and less automation. I could be wrong though.

Walt The "in-fiction" answer is that shields only work on the outside. Which is the biggest reason why I don't currently allow shields to block inside ships -- it just seems "wrong".

Ok, I understand. I agree it does seem strange for shields to work inside a room.

What do you think about boosting impact damage and reducing penetration damage, or changing penetration to per-tile?

nop

Walt The "in-fiction" answer is that shields only work on the outside. Which is the biggest reason why I don't currently allow shields to block inside ships -- it just seems "wrong".

This makes railguns an interesting answer to sumo/tank designs which protect their shields behind armor. Should shields work when cased in structure?

Dibs

Personally I like where the railgun is heading, feels good at the moment. The smaller railguns i tested felt balanced and the one i built with 29x accelerators and a few support thrusters comes in at just over 1.25million credits and feels suitably powerful (again countered by shields, but that now seems more appropriate). My only concern is the chain reaction of the gun. At current the 6k healthpool per module doesnt seem to fit the nature of a big gun that is basically the cost of your ship. If one module goes down, the whole gun chain reacts and you've basically just sawn the ship in half. Perhaps a stacking health buff for the gun per accelerator?

minimurgle

The way I saw the overcharge thing working (I think bleed would be more accurate though) is by having a maximum potential penetration. Let's say that a 2 accelerator railgun has a maximum potential penetration of 20 blocks and does 500 damage each hit. Let's also say that shields can take 300 damage before needing to recharge.

Currently the railgun would just hit the shield bringing it down, and the railgun shot is done even though it still had more damage it could have done. It had enough power to break down the shield and then some, but instead that's the end of the story. So why not let the bullet do the rest of what it could do.

So now the railgun shot hits the shield and brings it down. It then carries on with reduced penetration and damage. But because it hit the shield it was slowed down so now it will only penatrate another 7 blocks and do 100 damage per.

I think this would really help out with all the ammo based guns in the game. Afterall why should a shield that's taken a bunch of damage be able to block perfectly until it runs out of damage. It had a quarter of a battery left but it could block the whole bullet like it had 20 batteries. That's of course a much bigger issue with the railgun, a large multipart structure shouldn't feel like it's firing rocks at the shields.

Of course a lot of the values wouldnt work in game and definitely need some second thought, I barely put the first thought into it. I think that rambling mess should give some insight into what I was thinking though.

Walt

Dalas120 What do you think about boosting impact damage and reducing penetration damage, or changing penetration to per-tile?

Boosting impact damage sounds fine. I'm hesitant to reduce penetration damage -- the base (un-buffed) amount is already half that of the large cannon. Maybe if I add back in the final explosion?

Changing penetration damage back to per-tile I'm open to, though it will require rebalancing cannon penetration damage. (I'm trying to remember why I changed it to per-room in the first place. I think maybe I thought it would be easier to balance.)

Olexphyre It seems that once the projectile gets close enough to the target ship, it decides to fly just a liiittle bit further and makes contact.

Again, a saved game demonstrating this would be nice, since I'm 99% sure this doesn't actually happen.

BattleCruiserCommander I have made a ship with railguns that should make it have extremely long range. But when it exits the railgun it goes only a short distance. I have used other mods, but they don't interfere with the gun. Does the railgun have a certain limit with the accelerators? I will show you my ship so you see what I mean.

Yeah something is clearly bugged there. The range does max out after 3 accelerators, but that's a lot less than max range. I'll look into it.

samepage Instead of having a pool of damage to be reduced. The damage of the Railgun should change based on how much Penetraion value (Pen.) was left in the bullet as it went through the ship.

This is an interesting idea. I'll think about whether I prefer this to a damage pool.

samepage I suggest that the Railgun able to go through multiple shields like an EB, but reduce the damage to 25% for each shield it went through.

If I used your idea of reducing damage based on penetration remaining, then I think it'd make the most sense to just give shields a really high penetration resistance so that they stop most shots but longer railguns can penetrate through.

Dalas120 Bug - I think: railguns (and presumably cannons) deal full impact damage to shields even after dealing full impact damage to armor and penetrating, instead of dealing only penetration damage to shields. This doubles the total impact damage.

This is true of all penetrating weapons. Less of a bug and more of a... design oversight. 😛

SpaceCat The Railgun having only two parts "Loader" and "Launcher". But you can stack the Launchers and they then act as "Accelerators".

I was originally thinking about doing this, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that it's much more complex, both from a coding perspective and from a game design perspective, so I decided to stick to the simpler way.