Some thoughts and suggestions on game balance

TetraPark

Great discussion thread!
I think many of the suggestions made could go some way to address what I consider the current 'convergent evolution' problems looming in Cosmoteer. Right now, the big one seems to be 'wall ships' - ie. wall of standard cannons + wall of overlapping shields. I am particularly interested in giving smaller ships better chance - right now the wall ship concept has few exploitable weaknesses and IMHO is OP.

My two cents on discussion:
strongly agree with -
-suggestion to reduce accuracy of standard cannon somewhat as way to nerf pin-point cannon volleys.
-magnifying effect of electro-bolts against concentrated shields (and only concentrated shields).
-some type of buff to the ion beam.
-HOWEVER, I strongly suggest not trying to address existing problems by adding new weapons / components... lets get creative with what we got! 😛

Elecro-Bolts v concentrated Shields
I am not opposed to the idea of AoE of the electro-bolts, but I would suggest that the primary goal of this balance should be to very specifically improve their performance against Shield spam (thus maybe only add AoE vs Shields).
Here are some alternatives (to really push the anti-shield wall goal).

a) --- Energy drain effect travels through overlapping (touching) shield arcs, damaging each. Effect decays as travels through multiple overlapped shields up to a cap of say 3 or 4 shields. Net effect is maximum of nearly (lets say) twice current dps vs Shields. (eg; max dps vs single shield = 3600... max dps vs multi-shields = 3600 + 1800 + 900 = 6300). A variation on this would be to make the damage more distributive and actually reduce the damage to the first hit shield (in the case it overlaps with others) but still have a higher net damage (eg; max dps vs single shield = 3600... max dps vs multi-shields = 2700 + 2000 + 1500 = 6200).
In either case, visually, this effect could be telegraphed to the player by having each effected shield flash once in turn (100ms delay between each shield; flash less intense each subsequent shield denoting less damage) - visual be very quick, but enough to establish the way the effect works.

b) --- Electro-bolt punches through multiple layers of shields, draining each it goes through. Perhaps with a decay in effect for each layer it passes through + reduced effect if it hits any components after this (similar decay mechanic to suggested above).

Suggestion a) would be effective against even loosely overlapping shield defenses - ie. a wider front. Suggestion b) (or a simple AoE effect) would only be effective against very tightly packed shields. To me, a) sounds more intereting gameplay wise, though might require a slight nerfing of the Electro-Bolt's general performance so as to not be OP.

Ion Beam
My thinking on the Ion Beam as maybe to revamp its employment somewhat:
-In general terms, it needs to be more useful.
-We don't want to encourage annoying little 'beam kites' that can't be caught.
-Also I'm not keen on the idea of making it a specialist anti-shield or armour weapon - I think it should be an all-rounder in that respect.
I'll make a new post about my suggestions just for this weapon and link to it here when it is up.

Walt

TetraPark Electro-bolt punches through multiple layers of shields, draining each it goes through. Perhaps with a decay in effect for each layer it passes through + reduced effect if it hits any components after this (similar decay mechanic to suggested above).

I like this idea a lot. It counters the specific problem I want to address (stackable shields), is easy to understand from the player's POV, and (best of all!) should be pretty easy to implement.

Peepo

A lot of interesting ideas here, just wanted to pitch in my two cents.
Electrobolts
I really liked TetraPark idea about electrobolts having shield piercing with decay. My idea was to have electrobolts have "two" attacks, a slightly nerfed direct hit drain and a slightly weaker AOE drain. So they would still deal most of their drain/damage to a single target, but still be able to drain a general area and be more effective against stacked shields.
PD vs Missiles
This may be a more "creative" solution to the problem, but I thought it might be interesting to throw it out there anyway, if instead of nerfing PD directly, you make it more of a softer counter by buffing missiles by making them need to take two hits instead of one two be destroyed. In addition, "damaged" missiles could (should IMO) be given some sort of stat reduction like decreased damage, splash radius, or both. Then modify PD stats for balance(this would probably look like a buff against current missiles I think). I think this would be good because given the random nature of PD, missiles are quite literally hit or miss, vulnerable to extremes in certain situations. I think this, in addition to some of the other suggestions for PD, would sort of "smooth out" the damage potential of missiles, make it more consistent.
Also as a side note, I think it would be neat mechanically and visually if PD rounds were given a small amount of mass, and when missiles are hit but not destroyed, they will rock/turn accordingly to where/what angle they are hit like ships do, if that's not too computationally expensive, lots of missiles and all that

dieaready

I've been thinking on how to address the current cannon wall spam and I realised if the cannons are made less efficient for sustained fire, it would be a nerf to them and would encourage more lasers instead or greatly increase the use of storages.

Reduce ammo factory output to 25%.
Increase storage capacity of ammo storage by 4x.
Increase ammo storage capacity of all cannons by 2x.
Double the amount of ammo crew can haul.

This way, ships that want a wall of cannons would need to have depth to store a large amount of ammo for sustained fire, giving reason to use proper ships rather than just flat walls. It would also reduce the effectiveness of shield walls as the cannons would need a lot more corridors for crew to transport the ammo effectively from the back.

Hypertion

i have noticed that it is equally as easy to spam missiles to kill anything as it is to set up extreme PD protection.

the problem is that it is possible to make a missile build able out outrun any other build while still pelting its target with missiles.. part of the issue is that not only do missiles have the longest range of all the weapons, but a backward flying build that is fast enough can stay out of range of any other weapon.

i use "missile boats" to kill everything in bounty mode, to the point that my 300k build can take on even the toughest enemy in the vanguard zones. i also have a 990k version that is so powerful against even the strongest vanguard that i can focus purely in those areas with that one build.
image https://i.imgur.com/wwM9k0C.png

image https://i.imgur.com/CgUC2Ld.png

then i have this, my ultimate missile boat.

image https://i.imgur.com/mZJq2ru.png

honestly i think there is a good balance between missiles and PD... yes its easy to spam PD but its impossible to totally immunize yourself to missiles in enough numbers and the builds designed to stay at maximum range with them cannot be attacked with anything but missiles as well.. quite frankly, a pure missile build that is also faster than any other build and properly loaded with PD is unbeatable in the current game.

however that is a issue easily fixed with additonal weapons, namely some non tracking ones with better base range than missiles

dieaready

Hypertion The vanilla ships have horrible PD coverage. A ship with a couple of properly positioned 2-4 PD arrays each side can take out almost all incoming missiles except from the heaviest barrages and then once your alpha strike is over it is nearly impossible for the scattered missiles to make it through unless they manage to come in at a really weird angle.

Kiting is just a part of the game which would have to be resolved by either having longer ranged weapons or it would be a draw/loss. Goes back to the scissors/paper/stones game about weapon, counter, counter-counter, etc. Missiles and PD have their places, but atm I think individual PD has to be improved vs missiles while massed PD has to be nerfed.

Hypertion

dieaready
i was actually thinking about the issue of kiting, more than missiles vs PD, tho i like the idea of what you mentioned about individual PD vs group. hmm, maybe increase the energy needs of the PD? that and slighly reduce the ROF. either way, i do think that the solution stands more in having other weapons able to fight at longer ranges.

specifically, i see that there are 3 "captial" grade weapons in the game, the Ion laser, the Large cannon, and missiles. out of these 3 biggest of all guns, only the missiles are of any use..

i actually think a range boost on the Ion and the LGcannon would be good, on the cannon in particular i think the attack range needs a good 10-15% increase and the absolute projectile travel time needs a good 30-50% increase on top of that.

the Ion is weak enough when compared to shielding that even with a good increase of 50% it would still preform much the same as it does now.

TetraPark

IMHO I don't think missiles should really be effective against heavy PD. Of all weapon types, missiles are the most dangerous to fun gameplay should they be made even slightly OP - perhaps better to stray in the other direction. While I enjoy the spectacle of missiles, I do agree that at the moment they are not really viable in cost/benefit terms compared to most other weapons. To me, the randomness and unreliability of missiles are not entirely unwelcome - they add a welcome element of chance... hoping a volley gets through and hits a weak spot (or the obverse). Tactically, I see it filling the role of artillery:
-long range support
-rather indiscriminate
-not particularly effective against a prepared enemy
-reasonably devastating against an unprepared one
My suggestion is a simple one...perhaps a slight damage buff is in order to make it that when one does get through the results are more satisfying / devastating. Also, the idea of greater energy drain for PD ( dieaready) is an elegant one.

Walt

There are some pretty substantial balance changes to PD and missiles coming. In particular, missiles have a significantly larger AOE which makes them feel much more threatening and satisfying when they hit, and PD are now more accurate, which makes them better at shooting down individual missiles but actually worse at shooting down swarms of missiles. PD also run out of power a lot faster now.

Also made some balance changes to other weapons. Cannons are shorter-range and less-accurate now (the problem with long-range cannons is that they are extremely inaccurate at long range and so their first volley often misses entirely; making them shorter range is actually kind of a buff). And Electro-Bolts can penetrate shields, which makes them a pretty strong counter to stacked shields.

dieaready

Walt Very interesting changes, nice to be heard about the PD/Missiles. Just curious, what changes did you make to PD to make them more accurate?

For cannons, I'd actually prefer it if it was kept as long ranged (or even longer ranged) but a significant spread was added, that way you'll see lots of shells peppering the enemy ship all over, then up close they still lack the focus to punch right through everything at one go. This way they would be more of a mini-AOE type weapon that batters an area of the enemy ship while lasers would be a precise type weapon to snipe weapons/components off enemy ships

SpaceCat

Walt PD are now more accurate, which makes them better at shooting down individual missiles but actually worse at shooting down swarms of missiles.

So now "missile swarmer ships" are even more powerfull but fitting ships with only some missile launchers is less usefull. Makes ships with mixed weapons less attractive. Who builds the ship with the moste missile launchers is already a sport here ;-)

I like missiles having huge damage and longest range but at the same time i think PD should be highly effective.

ProntoManagement

About Walts above post you can also follow all of this in the coming soon section of the Trello, feel free to check it out here.

Walt

dieaready what changes did you make to PD to make them more accurate?

I fixed an underlying issue in the target prediction algorithm that should help all weapons, but especially helps PD. Which also allowed me to significantly reduce their random spread.

PD are still pretty good, but with the missile AOE buff, the occasional missile getting through can be pretty damaging.

Missiles are now also a soft counter to shields hidden behind weapons or other parts. The AOE is now large enough to damage anything placed in front of the shield, but not quite large enough to damage the shield itself.

dieaready For cannons, I'd actually prefer it if it was kept as long ranged (or even longer ranged) but a significant spread was added, that way you'll see lots of shells peppering the enemy ship all over, then up close they still lack the focus to punch right through everything at one go. This way they would be more of a mini-AOE type weapon that batters an area of the enemy ship while lasers would be a precise type weapon to snipe weapons/components off enemy ships

I hear you, it was just really frustrating when a ship missed with its entire initial volley of cannonfire. I think in the long-term it's better to keep cannons short-range but add more long-range weapons (railguns!). I did add a spread to the cannons, especially the large cannon, so they should be less useful at sniping specific weapons.

dieaready

SpaceCat The issue was that PD was already making a joke of even very heavy missile barrages due to the way it would unintentionally take out all the missiles behind the first missile as well. Now with individual PD being more accurate and a lot more energy consuming, people would be mounting less PD on ships which should allow small barrages to actually make it through the PD to do damage to ships.

SpaceCat

dieaready BUT exactly that small barrages are even less usefull now and the huge missile avalanches are even more overpowered now.

Atarlost

The missile AoE buff is going to make some of the more challenging NPCs completely impotent. It hurts the PVP walls, but ruins bounty mode.

dieaready

SpaceCat The point was that the huge missile barrages were almost useless as well, so at least something has improved. And you can still sneak the odd missile through the enemy's PD if you actually exchange fire with the enemy ship and happen to take out a few PD. Walt might nerf PD's accuracy in the next couple of patches so IMO just wait and see how it goes.

SpaceCat

Cerberus is ridiculous ;-) Missileships are win!

image https://i.imgur.com/awqrjBk.jpg

Teg

SpaceCat I made this recently and tried it out vs Cerberus:
image https://i.imgur.com/2U0TALM.png
image https://i.imgur.com/azMRdZj.png
Poor Cerby!

SpaceCat

dieaready Walt stated himself that single, or few, missiles are less powerfull but swarms of missiles even more powerfull now. I think it should have been the opposite.

Again: I like missiles having huge damage and longest range but at the same time i think PD should be highly effective - to a level that eventually you are forced to send a ship close enough to take out some PD.
Could even imagine Flare launchers as missile defense.

Teg

I agree with SpaceCat Any long range weapon is going to be abused, ion is balanced because of its limitations in component size and direction, but missiles are already being abused in tournaments (most recently by me in the 40k bugs 😃 ) and good PD placement was the counter. But if missile barrages are effective large scale they will dominate. Why use any other weapon when you have one that means you take no damage?

The old missiles where fine, they were very useful to fill side positions and destroy the remaining part of enemy ships once the PD had been destroyed. The increase in AOE helps this (and nerfs components in front of shield builds) so keep that, but PD SHOULD be super effective against a few or tons of missiles.

dieaready

Teg PD is already super effective vs missiles, in fact they should be more accurate vs single missiles. It is just that they now actually need to be built in a place with fast resupply and now they are less effective vs large amounts of missiles as it looks like they have slightly less spread (needs more testing). Placing 1 PD every few tiles on the exterior seems to be now a lot more effective and efficient than just slapping 2-4 PD in a row, meaning you just have to design your ship better with this in mind.