New Forum Section: Game Balance

Lafiel

Dibs PvP is about exploiting the tiniest bit to get an advantage, so pretty much any change affects it to differing extend. The only things that won't affect PvP is trade economics, and other single player specifics like home base and depositories.

Dibs

Lafiel How do railguns currently sit in current pvp meta, are they a worthwhile build? Would a cannon based alternative for shield disruption (maybe longer range, lower rate of fire and lower accuracy than electrobolts for discussion sake) have any merit in pvp?

YAreyaREdAzE

Dibs How do railguns currently sit in current pvp meta, are they a worthwhile build?

Fairly okay. Railgun type ships rely on being able to puncture a single spot easily so if you can achieve that, you'd have a good rail design. Note that most rail ships that are effective in pvp are usually massed short rails in fire at target so they can actually focus.

Dibs

YAreyaREdAzE That makes sense, i've played around with long rails and find they are very lackluster compared to the alternatives for the investment. Is playing with massed railguns more micro-management intense? I imagine you need to control positioning and turning a lot more then normal?

YAreyaREdAzE

Dibs surprisingly it's base form (a slow-ish rail "fan") is less micro-intensive than most pvp ships, but more aggressive forms of the rail fan tend to be more intense, yeah (because you have to traget the rails in such a way that they can damage the innards, or at least set up for it)

Hatter

Atarlost

4) If FTL efficiency continues to exist, expansive armor schemes have additional costs for PvE players that they don't have for either PvP players or NPCs.

Point of order: NPC' ships (barring some fringe ships which are just that much of a heap of junk) have FTL capabilities and deal with the same second-order FTL costs of extensive armoring a player does.

Dibs

Hatter I don't think armor will go out of use though, it's used differently to shielding. In ship segments where you would consider replacing armor with shielding though, it's still a cost benefit analysis, with shields having a higher buy in price (power and crew) vs cheap armor with ongoing cost drains on FTL efficiency and repairs. I see it more of a design choice than a straight up issue.

For the same cost of 2 shield generators, a crew and quarters for 6, a small generator and a fire extinguisher you can purchase almost 194 single armor pieces. Even when considering expansive armor designs, i think the coverage difference between the two options is a thing to factor into that decision.

image for reference on equal cost vs coverage

Dibs

Atarlost 1) resource storage will weigh down player ships at least in the early game before fleets are practical unless it is free. NPCs don't need resource storage unless they represent miners or freighters and will consequently have a maneuverability edge.

If resource storage from NPC's drops salvagable loot for players, it could represent a reason to include them into the built in NPC ships, eliminating the advantage.

Could also consider that fleet composition could come into play here if the resources can be moved between ships freely. Players could have a logistics fleet that follows their combat fleet to salvage the loot, eliminating the need of ever increasing storage on combat vessels. Early game, could make a flying can to use as a satellite storage for the players starter ship. If the new PvE is instanced in the same way bounty hunter is (earnings wise), should be able to afford something like that after the second or third system clear

Walt

Atarlost And Walt is soon going to be trying to balance a new PvE mode

It's possible my opinion will change after launch, but for now, any discussion about the new PvE mode's balance is purely speculative and I don't think warrants the creation of a whole new forum section.

Atarlost If ammo production requires resources but battery production does not, ammo weapons have to be substantially better than energy weapons

But on the flip side, builds without factories are now far more viable.

Dibs I'm not convinced it is a good idea to add ammunition resource cost tbh, as it will throw the current balance out of whack

The current balance is already being thrown out of whack, resource costs is just one of many reasons for that.

Dibs If resource storage from NPC's drops salvagable loot for players,

It does.

Dibs if the resources can be moved between ships freely

They can.

Dibs If the new PvE is instanced in the same way bounty hunter

It's not. "Instances" are far larger in the new PvE.

Atarlost

Walt It's possible my opinion will change after launch, but for now, any discussion about the new PvE mode's balance is purely speculative and I don't think warrants the creation of a whole new forum section.

Walt The current balance is already being thrown out of whack, resource costs is just one of many reasons for that.

If you believe you can predict how your changes will effect the balance you should be soliciting feedback now. If you don't believe you can predict how your changes will effect the balance you shouldn't make them coincide with the Steam release.

What I expect to happen is that the content creators that have covered Cosmoteer in the past will cover the Steam release. And they will play the new PvE content not PvP. And they will approach this as basically new players because your "novel game concept" coverage was years ago.

If the balance is bad when the Steam release related coverage spike occurs it will hurt growth.

Walt

Atarlost That's why I will do playtesting and then possibly some sort of alpha before the Steam launch. But there's no point in having a forum section for PvE balance feedback until there's something playable to actually give feedback on.

Atarlost

Walt Even a single thread soliciting feedback to inform your changes before you get too attached to them would be useful.

I suspect for instance that the gameplay loop will be less fun with resource replenishment runs in between combats and the most efficient "just enough" ammo builds will be the most frustrating. "The punishment for farming slimes is farming slimes," is no longer held to be good design if it ever was.

I am quite certain that the values of parts will vary substantially between PvP players, PvE players, and PvE NPC designers if resources for replenishment are tracked and limited to a degree that gives that tracking any purpose.

Twisted

Atarlost I agree the "just enough ammo" builds are really quite frustrating, I think some thought needs to go into how to avoid those types of meta, if that indeed does become the case.

Dibs

I guess its easier to set a list of questions for @Walt about how he currently intends to handle resources, rather then conjecture (which i love doing) about the effects of what we think is going to happen to the game and getting occasional responses to steer discussion.

Here are mine about resources:

Will resource requirements for ammo and missile factories be able to be toggled on/off for pvp?

How large are the resource stacks?

How much mass does a full resource stack contribute to the ships mass?

How long can a single resource stack feed a single continuously operating ammo factory or a continuously operating missile factory?

Will resources dropped from PvE enemies be a randomized amount, or what is actually left in the PvE ships inventory?

Will killing PvE enemies alone be enough to replenish resources for player ships heavily invested in cannons and or missiles?

Can excess resources be sold for profit?

Will cannon or missile focused ships need to supplement resource replenishment via mining or purchasing more resources?

Will resources be infinitely available at market for purchase?

Will asteroid fields/mining locations respawn/reset, are they infinite or finite for mining?

Will the buy/sale cost of resources change from location to location? Will those values fluctuate over time?

Edits/additions:

Will crew require access to inventories?

Will inventories be a set base size like ammo or missile storage, or will it be single tile so they can be hidden in a ships nooks and crannies?

Obviously Walt doesn't have to answer all or any of these, but the insight would be appreciated. Im sure much of these questions and more will be asked again closer to the release and also answered through the alpha testing phase

Walt

Dibs Will resource requirements for ammo and missile factories be able to be toggled on/off for pvp?

No.

Dibs How large are the resource stacks?

Depends on the resource. Bullets are 20/tile and missile parts 10/tile. Raw resources are usually 5/tile but each raw resource can generally create a full stack of bullets/missiles.

Dibs How much mass does a full resource stack contribute to the ships mass?

Zero.

Dibs How long can a single resource stack feed a single continuously operating ammo factory or a continuously operating missile factory?

According to my calculations, a single stack of sulfur can supply an ammo factory for 50 seconds (producing 100 ammo).

Dibs Will resources dropped from PvE enemies be a randomized amount, or what is actually left in the PvE ships inventory?

Destroyed parts drop a small amount of resources. Salvaged parts drop more. Resources in storage drop at 50% when destroyed or 100% when salvaged.

Dibs Will killing PvE enemies alone be enough to replenish resources for player ships heavily invested in cannons and or missiles?

Probably not, at least not reliably so.

Dibs Can excess resources be sold for profit?

Yes.

Dibs Will cannon or missile focused ships need to supplement resource replenishment via mining or purchasing more resources?

Probably. (It's cheap, especially if the raw resources are purchased at stations and then manufactured by the player.)

Dibs Will resources be infinitely available at market for purchase?

They're not infinite at any given point in time but stations will restock after some time as trade ships drop off resupplies.

Dibs Will asteroid fields/mining locations respawn/reset, are they infinite or finite for mining?

Currently finite, but not 100% sure yet. (NPC mining ships could create balance issues if finite, which is why I'm not sure.)

Dibs Will the buy/sale cost of resources change from location to location? Will those values fluctuate over time?

Currently no but ideally yes, just not sure if dynamic resource prices will make it in time for launch, it's a lower-priority feature.

Dibs Will crew require access to inventories?

For what purpose?

Dibs Will inventories be a set base size like ammo or missile storage, or will it be single tile so they can be hidden in a ships nooks and crannies?

Smallest generic storage is 2x2 (i.e. no closet, sorry). Any room that uses resources will also have some amount of its own local storage built-in.

Dibs

Walt Dibs Will crew require access to inventories?

For what purpose?

I just wasn't sure if resources needed to be hiked over by crew to the utilizing part in the same way that ammo is hiked from factory to cannon.

Walt Dibs Will resource requirements for ammo and missile factories be able to be toggled on/off for pvp?

No.

How do you intend to manage this? Will resources be able to be purchased and placed into ships inventory when designing a ship? or will it be through some other method such as spawning a set amount of resources for a team through the PvP settings?

Walt

Dibs I just wasn't sure if resources needed to be hiked over by crew to the utilizing part in the same way that ammo is hiked from factory to cannon.

They do.

Dibs How do you intend to manage this? Will resources be able to be purchased and placed into ships inventory when designing a ship? or will it be through some other method such as spawning a set amount

Resources have a cost associated with them that is included in the total ship cost.

Dibs

Thank you very much for responding 🙂

DarklordvipL

Walt

There are many people who are afraid to speak their own opinion, I believe that if a new section is opened, it will encourage people.