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  • Mm_se

    • Post #1
    • Edited

    Alright settle in this is gonna be an essay

    So I don't really like how small ships work in Cosmoteer. The current ship
    design system encourages large ships with every weapon possible, coated in
    shields and full of engines. While finding a way to negate every possible con
    might be fun for some, I prefer to have limits and difficulties to overcome.
    What I mean by that is I would prefer that I have to compromise based on size
    of my ships. Speed should be a quality of smaller, more agile ships which rely
    on their maneuverability to dodge incoming fire. I would prefer if ships of
    different sizes had different roles to play in battle, rather than 2
    dreadnoughts duking it out.

    But this post has solutions included! Here's what I recommend:
    First of all, Cosmoteer needs some better AI to take advantage of
    maneuverability in smaller ships. Obviously, building an AI is one of the more
    difficult things to do in code but if there is time for it in a post 1.0 update
    then I would appreciate it 🙂. Secondly, smaller ships should be more useful in
    both multiplayer and singleplayer modes. One way to do this could be to weaken
    engines, or have engine power scale with mass. This would make larger ships
    slower and smaller ships more agile, and thus more viable. Additionally, bigger
    weapons should be worse at leading their shots in my opinion. Rewarding agility
    and discouraging fighter v battleship scenarios is kind of my whole point here.
    I like to think of naval warfare in this regard. Every ship type has a purpose
    and role relative to allied ships. And battleships are too slow and inaccurate
    to engage destroyers, in the same way destroyers cannot engage battleships
    effectively.

    The most major issue here, and the underlying cause of all this is that there
    are no roles to play in Cosmoteer. Ships lack the ability to support each other
    and there is simply no thought of preservation, no reason why a single massive
    ship would be equal to hundreds of smaller ones. Creating goals and things to
    defend (think cargo, hunter killer groups, outposts) would massively help in
    this regard.

    Anyways, whether you agree or not let me know what you think and thanks for
    struggling through this. I'm hoping that my ideas will be considered for future
    updates or, if this simply isn't the direction Cosmoteer is going, that at least
    my ideas are sound and coherent.

    Thanks 🙂
    -Aspiring Game Designer

    Edit: I'm kinda struggling to get all my thoughts into this post so I hope this made sense

    Do you agree with what I'm saying?

    That's not how it works. The fundamental problems regarding building are:

    1. gamy rules and mechanics, not all real world laws apply
    2. "game balance": cheats to make things "fair"
    3. Sandbox open building, atomic "standard" parts rather than infinite custom parts
    4. restrictive grid rather than free polygonic parts
    5. sole crew based supplying
      etc.

    All these fundamental design decision are the reason. Change any of these and it will be just another boring game. lol

    Lafiel I'm not really sure what you mean
    I'm not really suggesting changing core design mechanics, just that design should be more about decisions and trade-offs based on the role you want the ship you are designing to play, rather than "how can I fit more guns in"

      • Walt

      • Post #4
      • Edited

      m_se current ship
      design system encourages large ships with every weapon possible, coated in
      shields

      This may be true in single player, but it is not true in high level multiplayer, where there are various different meta designs and shields are generally considered on the weak end. Obviously single player is important too, but i don't want to do anything that would hurt multiplayer balance and variety. The best solution might be too improve enemy ai and ship design to push single player strategy to be more similar to multiplayer.

      m_se better AI to take advantage of
      maneuverability in smaller ships

      What would this ai do specifically? And would it also apply to player ships or just non player ships?

      m_se One way to do this could be to weaken
      engines, or have engine power scale with mass

      Not sure how weakening engines would help since that would affect all sizes equally.

      Making engines more powerful on ships with lower mass probably would help, but i don't think I'm willing to do that. It would be unrealistic, unintuitive, and would create strange exploits.

      m_se Additionally, bigger
      weapons should be worse at leading their shots in my opinion

      Weapons already have a hard enough time leading their shots, which contributes to how much speed dominates in multiplayer, and there's not much I can do to improve the shot leading for small weapons. Making shot leading worse for large weapons would probably make the speed meta in multiplayer even worse than it already is or just encourage use of small weapons.

              m_se Designs all depends on stats. Stats determine everything from placement, orientation, mixture, supply, defense, offense, speed etc. Because the parts are atomic and not varied (as in variants) you are stuck with a meta for each set of stats.
              When stats relation change so do building strategies. All the strategies/meta repeat themselves with the relation of stats.
              IRL is no different except you got more options / harder obstacles to overcome, hence, fine tuning has greater impact/difference. These result in more limitation, hence, in more defined roles.

              Modularity could help but Cosmoteer is very bad in realizing or supporting this than anything else.

                  Walt What would this ai do specifically? And would it also apply to player ships or just non player ships?

                  An AI that flies past on a tangent to a circle around the target at a designer designated distance (what that distance should be depends on the speed of the ship, firing arcs and shot speed of the weapons, and how damage tolerant it is, and even how long it is so isn't well suited to auto-generation) would be much more useful than the current "stand and deliver" ai for fast non-kite spacefraft of any size. This would apply to ships under actual AI control.

                  The ability to specify which engines are used for which purpose would be generally helpful, but especially for ships that rely on speed as it would prevent them from cutting forward thrust or engaging braking thrust to turn when they are designed with perfectly good side pointing turning thrusters. This would be stored with a ship similarly to control groups and effect how the ship handles under user or AI control. Without this the AI would have to pick a flyby and stick to it no matter how the target moved to avoid slowing down and making itself a target. With it it can adjust its course to stay on a course tangent at the right distance as the target moves.

                  Another useful AI setting would be to always maneuver to the facing of the target ship with the least guns for use on PvP "orbiters."

                  These AI settings should be set in the ship file not determined heuristically.

                      10 days later

                      m_se Well thought-out post!

                      Honestly, I agree with much of what you’ve suggested! With the exception of Domination (a huge step forward in utilizing ship and fleet tactics), most multiplayer battles do come down to massive ships, often 1v1s.

                      In addition, something that’s bothered me for a long time is this: metas and game-specific design has taken over Cosmoteer while more natural design and fleet strategies don’t always get enough attention. I love multiplayer - it’s the best part of Cosmoteer to me - but I think its metas and the emphasis on making everything work for multiplayer has essentially overridden the more natural style first explored in single player. This style is so important for one huge reason: against many players, to win multiplayer, you are required to use the meta or you will lose. And I feel that completely misses the point and original design of Cosmoteer.

                      IMHO, Cosmoteer was never intended to be so strongly focused on multiplayer, utilizing the best metas and working around game-specific designs (like internal thrusters and shields), but rather as it’s projected to be in Adventure Mode - build and upgrade sci-fi ships, travel the galaxy, devise tactics and destroy enemies. IMHO, I wish to see multiplayer share this vision and broaden it by sharing it with others. I’d really like that, personally. 🙂

                      (I’m not trying to be rude, I just really enjoy Cosmoteer and I care about its future, what it’s becoming.)

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