Tegs Big Modular Boxes Unbeatable Challenge!

Mc2

Equalizer Actually missiles were never able to pass trough enough PD, problem was how to deal misile kiter any damage, not how to handle missiles 😃

keylocke

Equalizer So are cannon walls now able to beat missile ships?

pure cannon wall against pure missile kites? that is highly unlikely, unless cannon wall got lucky with its initial volley when both ships charge and drift closer to each other than usual or it gets a lucky hit when its opponent's thrusters ran out of juice and fail to kite properly. (this is why i prefer linear thruster designs than the box thruster designs. coz battles are done in marathons not sprints. and ships need a lot more back/forward thrusters than side thrusters)

mixed-gun ships (large cannons + missiles) is possible to win against a pure missile kite. but it mostly depends on which one is doing the kiting.

Teg ooh, are those tail missiles supposed to make the AI kite?

btw, i haven't tested out the multiplayer yet. any feedback on it?

Mc2

keylocke it is not cannon wal, it is PD + canons, and condition is that there are enough PD that can handle any number of missiles which can be shoot from 100x100 space.

Your wery fast kiter desired special solution, but or ships with more normal speed PD+ cannons is the solution.

Teg

Equalizer I used default battle helper settings with no interference. What version are you running atm? (I'm in 13.0 RC1 atm.) Edit: I also run larger battles at 1/4 speed, so that might be a factor too.

keylocke Teg ooh, are those tail missiles supposed to make the AI kite?

btw, i haven't tested out the multiplayer yet. any feedback on it?

Yep, after looking through your kiting thread, I thought I try to game the system a bit.
I haven't had a chance to try multiplayer yet, my discord is Teg#4549 if anyone wants to try it out with me.

keylocke

Mc2 PDs are always assumed to be included. so even if people say cannon wall or pure missile kite, there would ALWAYS be PDs so there wasn't much need to say it.

i think what equalizer was trying to ask was : if cannon walls can actually beat a missile kite?

that mostly depends on which ship is kiting. if cannon wall kites pure missile, then cannon wall wins. the ship that kites has great advantage. (especially if kiter is fast enough to stay out of range)

Mc2

keylocke Kitting is big advantage, so you have to make design which force enemy ship not to kite, that is beginning, one way is to make your ship kiter, second way is to force kitting ship to wild manuevering, which will lead from time to time distance short enough for cannon to reach you.

Equalizer

keylocke I was actually just wondering whether it is even possible to design a reasonable ship (i.e. not sacrificing almost all fire power) that can absorb constant missile fire without taking any damage.

There always seems to be some gaps in point defense fire but it does appear that a blend of point defense and shields that extend far enough out to block splash damage works.

I am not going to comment on kitting other than that I think that is more of an artifact of the current state of the game and that it is slated to go away sometime in the future.

Teg I tried on the last stable release (0.12.12), so I guess the distance control has changed in the newer version.

Teg

Equalizer I made another 12.12 installation and sure enough my ship stayed out of range.

Bugfix: In some cases attacking large ships would choose a very-close attack distance and non-optimal rotation.

Looks like there was some kind of AI change.

keylocke

Equalizer i wish walt could just add a GUI stat in the build mode that would display your ship's optimal kiting range in kilometers or whatever (the distance your ship will try to maintain when engaging an enemy, based on the ship's weighted AIFirepowerRating, speed, weight, etc..). gist is : the ship with the longer kiting range will probably be the one that kites. it would also be cool if players can toggle on/off the firing arc display of the guns in build mode (just to make it easier to optimize gun positioning).

although, yea. the problems with the kiting AI is probably a moot point in multiplayer since players are probably able to manually change their ship's kiting range (so speed is the main factor). however, players often download/install other player's ship designs. which means that the ships we share with others which they would use in singleplayer mode are still gonna be using AI kiting. so even powerful ships that players use in multiplayer (coz players can optimize their preferred kiting range), could become super weak in singleplayer (coz the AI doesn't bring it in the ship designer's preferred kiting range. ie : a player designed heavily armored/shielded ship designed to face hug the opponent at VERY close range, but the AI keeps the ship at medium range, making it unable to unleash a continuous barrage of cannon fire and ion beams.) which could become problematic.

Mc2

Teg in 13.02rc there AI at least start to face with huge ships opponents by front and not by corner 😃

Mc2

Teg By the way, did you notice that you finally force me to start build non FTL able ships 😃

Teg

Mc2 The real challenge will always be PvP! 😃

Sombreroman Thanks, I made a few new ones here that are more up to date for the new balance changes: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/2969-teg-s-vanilla-modules-emporium

Sombreroman

Teg Cool modules!

panda

I'd like to challenge the pappion or what that is haha unique name where did you get that from?

Mc2

panda goto line1 😃

Teg

panda It's french for butterfly, I've always liked the name because of this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_(book)

ROSEtints

ill do it with this hells haven

image https://i.imgur.com/BnAu9RJ.png

Teg

ROSEtints

The rules for Pappion challenge are:
No mods, even vanilla ones.
A reasonably similar price range. 3-4 million

The rules for Big Box Two challenge are:
No mods, even vanilla ones. (Must built in the normal size limits)

Your ship uses mods and is larger then then the default 100x100 grid.

Mc2

Teg At least you see how strong your ships are.

Im on 3,1 mio cost to beat your newest one, but when I reduce cost it stops kiting :S :S :S That's awfull 😃 😃

And I find out which design of ship is faster, the one who just have more thrusters in direction, no matter how mass/thruster ratio looks like = to succesfully kite from your ship cost fortune for thrusters.

Other way, to have lots of side thrusters and constantly swype to get away from shoots does not work.

When I deal with new monsters, it will be time to make some workable design 😃

Mc2

Teg Do you remember some discussion about ships facing with very strange ankle? I have one design to post there 😃 (spend several hours creating new monster and then I just find out that id decide to face all enemies with most vulnerable and weak part, corner of tail).

ROSEtints

ok ill do that