Tegs Big Modular Boxes Unbeatable Challenge!

Mc2

Teg That was fast answer 😃 XX6 and our previous cube were facing corectly, no corners.

Mc2

Ha, i think, that you should not play ships big like this and with lots of missiles on your machine. Because I find out, that if PC is not able to count all events, then it estimete, especialy for rockets. This may lead you to overestimate performance of big cube 😃
Even your newest ships is coming to same end on pc capable at least on slowest speed to count all actions.
image https://i.imgur.com/6wpuYcQ.jpg
after some time, you can see, that you are lossing cannons and pd in front, without dealing any significal damage to my ship, by the way, we are flying in huge circles, no ship capable to get to its desired position.

image https://i.imgur.com/6jh5eOC.png

time to sleep, lets see what i find alive in morning 😃

P.S.: Sometmes my ship purely kite, and that is advantage for you, because i saw on my eyes how shoot pass trough shield :S

Morning edit:

looks that its going to end in draw :S
image https://i.imgur.com/Q6YKkhz.png

Lets wait what i see lter. And for your i run another battle to confirm result.

Teg

Mc2 I have some new ships for you to try! 😃
image https://i.imgur.com/gGgCRlL.png
I wanted to see how small I could go and built this:
image https://i.imgur.com/hWtXcoX.png
My test result (after a pretty long battle):

image https://i.imgur.com/Yjc6lmC.png

Your ships have been a great challenge, I wouldn't of had the motivation to design new modules without them!

Mc2

Teg You are kidding me? How could i design answers to your modules so fast 😃 😃 😃

Hehe, looks like you get cosmoteerism as well 😃

Have to go to work. check later, and first of all, ill download 13rc top have equal conditions.

But way to defeat your cube is definettely very cautious approach, no agresive hitting face to face 😃

keylocke

Equalizer So are cannon walls now able to beat missile ships?

pure cannon wall against pure missile kites? that is highly unlikely, unless cannon wall got lucky with its initial volley when both ships charge and drift closer to each other than usual or it gets a lucky hit when its opponent's thrusters ran out of juice and fail to kite properly. (this is why i prefer linear thruster designs than the box thruster designs. coz battles are done in marathons not sprints. and ships need a lot more back/forward thrusters than side thrusters)

mixed-gun ships (large cannons + missiles) is possible to win against a pure missile kite. but it mostly depends on which one is doing the kiting.

Teg ooh, are those tail missiles supposed to make the AI kite?

btw, i haven't tested out the multiplayer yet. any feedback on it?

Equalizer

So are cannon walls now able to beat missile ships?

Last time I looked it seemed point defenses could be overpowered by simply throwing more missiles.
The issue seemed to be that all point defenses tend to fire together resulting them to all run out of energy at the same time. This leaves a small window for missiles to leak through.

Teg

Equalizer I had to add PD and rebuild my PD modules for better efficiency (still think they could be better,) but it was enough to stop your Missile U ship. It looks like the reign/rain of missiles might be over! 😃 (More testing needed to be sure.)
image https://i.imgur.com/xzKPkPA.png
image https://i.imgur.com/E7m20h5.png

Mc2

Equalizer Actually missiles were never able to pass trough enough PD, problem was how to deal misile kiter any damage, not how to handle missiles 😃

Mc2

Teg Equalizer U is over already som time : https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/2892-can-someone-fully-explain-how-the-game-s-kiting-algorithm-works/8

after i come from work test battles were over, cube defeated. for sure.

image https://i.imgur.com/jDy3TR3.jpg

I thing that this has no winner, because when you know your opponent ahead, you alway find later or sooner corect answer to it.

System sicors paper stone works, even if it is not so smoothly.

Equalizer

Did you need manually tell your ship to close to cannon range?

When I tried your ship (using battle helper) it seemed to stay too far away resulting in a draw. It didn't appear to be taking any damage from missiles other than some shield hits so it looked like it would win if it didn't stay so far away.

Teg

Equalizer I used default battle helper settings with no interference. What version are you running atm? (I'm in 13.0 RC1 atm.) Edit: I also run larger battles at 1/4 speed, so that might be a factor too.

keylocke Teg ooh, are those tail missiles supposed to make the AI kite?

btw, i haven't tested out the multiplayer yet. any feedback on it?

Yep, after looking through your kiting thread, I thought I try to game the system a bit.
I haven't had a chance to try multiplayer yet, my discord is Teg#4549 if anyone wants to try it out with me.

Mc2

keylocke it is not cannon wal, it is PD + canons, and condition is that there are enough PD that can handle any number of missiles which can be shoot from 100x100 space.

Your wery fast kiter desired special solution, but or ships with more normal speed PD+ cannons is the solution.

keylocke

Mc2 PDs are always assumed to be included. so even if people say cannon wall or pure missile kite, there would ALWAYS be PDs so there wasn't much need to say it.

i think what equalizer was trying to ask was : if cannon walls can actually beat a missile kite?

that mostly depends on which ship is kiting. if cannon wall kites pure missile, then cannon wall wins. the ship that kites has great advantage. (especially if kiter is fast enough to stay out of range)

Mc2

keylocke Kitting is big advantage, so you have to make design which force enemy ship not to kite, that is beginning, one way is to make your ship kiter, second way is to force kitting ship to wild manuevering, which will lead from time to time distance short enough for cannon to reach you.

Equalizer

keylocke I was actually just wondering whether it is even possible to design a reasonable ship (i.e. not sacrificing almost all fire power) that can absorb constant missile fire without taking any damage.

There always seems to be some gaps in point defense fire but it does appear that a blend of point defense and shields that extend far enough out to block splash damage works.

I am not going to comment on kitting other than that I think that is more of an artifact of the current state of the game and that it is slated to go away sometime in the future.

Teg I tried on the last stable release (0.12.12), so I guess the distance control has changed in the newer version.

Teg

Equalizer I made another 12.12 installation and sure enough my ship stayed out of range.

Bugfix: In some cases attacking large ships would choose a very-close attack distance and non-optimal rotation.

Looks like there was some kind of AI change.

keylocke

Equalizer i wish walt could just add a GUI stat in the build mode that would display your ship's optimal kiting range in kilometers or whatever (the distance your ship will try to maintain when engaging an enemy, based on the ship's weighted AIFirepowerRating, speed, weight, etc..). gist is : the ship with the longer kiting range will probably be the one that kites. it would also be cool if players can toggle on/off the firing arc display of the guns in build mode (just to make it easier to optimize gun positioning).

although, yea. the problems with the kiting AI is probably a moot point in multiplayer since players are probably able to manually change their ship's kiting range (so speed is the main factor). however, players often download/install other player's ship designs. which means that the ships we share with others which they would use in singleplayer mode are still gonna be using AI kiting. so even powerful ships that players use in multiplayer (coz players can optimize their preferred kiting range), could become super weak in singleplayer (coz the AI doesn't bring it in the ship designer's preferred kiting range. ie : a player designed heavily armored/shielded ship designed to face hug the opponent at VERY close range, but the AI keeps the ship at medium range, making it unable to unleash a continuous barrage of cannon fire and ion beams.) which could become problematic.

Mc2

Teg in 13.02rc there AI at least start to face with huge ships opponents by front and not by corner 😃

Mc2

Teg By the way, did you notice that you finally force me to start build non FTL able ships 😃

Teg

Mc2 The real challenge will always be PvP! 😃

Sombreroman Thanks, I made a few new ones here that are more up to date for the new balance changes: https://forum.cosmoteer.net/d/2969-teg-s-vanilla-modules-emporium

Sombreroman

Teg Cool modules!